Argument

[masher]

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate section

I was wondering if somebody could tell me the answer to a question?!

This is what a "friend" of mine came up with as an argument for pro guinea pig breeding, as I was trying to persuade her and another out of it.

"Why doesn't everyone who's freaking out stop pitching a fit and consider this. When you get older and decide to have kids, are you going to adopt or are you going to have them yourself? Because in case you haven't noticed, the humans in this world are WAY more overpopulated than the guinea pigs. So, to take your side of things, I hope that you won't breed and that you'll adopt! There's no way you could love your own child more than you would love an adopted one! I insist that when you decide to have kids that you run off to the nearest 'orphanage' or adoption agency and adopt yourself a child instead of being so very very foolish and making one yourself. You should NEVER have you're own children, that's a horrible idea, just think of all the
poor kids up for adoption! How could you possibly even think about having a child of your own with someone you love when there are tons of children all around the world who need homes???"

I feel sure this question has been asked before on here, but I can't seem to find an appropriate answer anywhere!? Can anybody help me out?!

Oh, and I must stress, that this was not my argument, but I need to find a strong argument to put against it

Thanks in advance

[CavySpirit]

Any argument that tries to compare people to pets is faulty in so many ways it's absurd. BUT, if we go along with it, then it still doesn't have any merit. Children aren't being killed by the hundreds every day because there are just too darn many of them and not enough parents to go around. In point of fact, it is very difficult to adopt a child and there is not enough 'supply' of adoptable children to meet the demands of parents wanting to adopt. First she's talking about 'tons of children all over the world needing homes.' Really? Then she's talking about the 'overpopulation' of the world. When we start killing off the 'undesirables' (old? infirm?) because there are just too dang many people, then we'd probably have other problems to worry about other than pet population.

[MilwCavyMom]

There are so many flaws and holes in this person's argument its absurd. I have to agree with all of what CavySpirit said. Yes I consider my pets, my pigs and my cats, as my children. And I love them as much as I love my son(whom I'd given up for adoption). Love is love it doesn't matter where the person or animal comes from. BUT that's all moot. This person sounds like she's just rambling and has no real argument. She needs to lose the parallel of human children vs. pets since there is no possible comparison. And once that is stripped away, its as CS says, there is a large abundence of animals that need homes, so why not give them a home?

[fairysari]

Is your friend actually going to breed her guinea pigs, and you want help to convince her not to? And this is her argument of why it is okay to breed GPs?

I don't see how your decision to have children or not or adopt children or not at some indeterminate point in the future has anything to do with breeding guinea pigs. Even if everything she said made sense (which it doesn't), it still doesn't address the fact that there IS a guinea pig overpopulation problem, and if she breeds she will be contributing to it. All she is doing is giving reasons why you shouldn't argue with her breeding - nothing at all about what good could come from her breeding (probably because there isn't any).

So why doesn't what she said make sense? Like T said, children aren't being euthanized in orphanages to make room for more. You also can't just waltz right in to a baby store and buy a baby with no questions asked, like you can with a guinea pig. People don't decide to have children, then drop them off at the shelter for ridiculous reasons when they don't want them anymore, like they do with pets:

"My child is more work than I thought and smells bad so I have to get rid of it"
"My child's room takes up too much room in the house, he'd be better in a new home"
"We're moving and we just can't take the kids with us"
"I've developed an allergy to my child, he has to go"
"My child keeps having accidents on the floor and just can't be potty trained"

I would probably ask your friend why does she want to breed? What good does she really think could come from it? And if you were to concede and say "OK, you are right, when I am older and want to have children I will adopt" - would that really be enough for her to decide not to breed?

[masher]

Thanks for all your replies

Yes my friend does want to breed, she is not a "real - life" friend so to speak but one from another forum. Its kind of a complicated situation, as the person who made the quoted statement ^^ was not even the person I'm trying to persuade out of breeding but somebody sticking up for her, if you get what I mean. And yes this was meant to be a reason "for" her breeding.

I am currently trying very hard to persuade the breeder-to-be in question out of breeidng, but most of the arguments I give her, she gives answers which she deems as "suitable" but aren't really

Thanks

EDIT: Also I was wondering if I could please copy and paste your repliwa onto the thread concerning this matter, as it would be very helpful to the argument?!

[daftscotslass]

By the same logic she's used, if you're for breeding then you're for all humans multiplying against their will. Guinea pigs in a breeding situation effectively have reproduction forced upon them - it's not as if the females have a choice about whether or not to breed when the male jumps on them when a breeder puts the two of them together in a confined space. She doesn't have the option of getting away from him. Forcing human beings to do the same is illegal in many, if not most, cultures.

[wickedrodent]

I was going to say the same things as many other people have already said..

Humans have the choice to have children and to keep them, guinea pigs and other animals dont. They may be sweet and cute, but lets face it they aren't smart enough to smack the other guinea pig and say, "no we cant have babies there are already too many of us out there". Its up to humans to make that choice, and that is why there is such a problem with overpopulation today..

For the argument to say humans shouldn't have their own kids, Im torn on this. Yes, one day I would like the have a child of my own, but I would also love to adopt. The fact is, nowadays it takes so much time and money to adopt and you dont even have the reassurence that the parents of the child isnt going to come back, change their minds, and want the child back.

[masher]

Thanks for all the replies, I am not sure if I will be able to make the person in question change their mind, but it is worth a try, and maybe I can bring her round

Thanks for all your help

[sollyrules]

If you want to make a statement why dont you post it on the real thread, at (Link deleted by Mod, you don't get to peddle your forum here)

I to be honest was appauled that Molly would take it this far and be so offencive to Vicky! I am the owner of Coco, the guinea pig dad to be, and im also the admin of Roaming Guineas. However NOBODY is going to chnge my mind, like ive said many times!

[daftscotslass]

Dear me. You want babies even though you know there are homeless pigs out there? Will you take responsibility if the sow dies, even though she's not yours? What sort of a person loans out their pet to breed from?

It won't be long until you get bored of them, like most hobby breeders do. Then it will be people like those who rescue on this forum that you will be begging to pick up the pieces.

[Susan9608]

However NOBODY is going to chnge my mind, like ive said many times!

How proud you seem to be of being close-minded! It must be nice to be so sure of yourself and so confident that you feel you are above listening to anyone else's opinion.

I checked out the link you posted; it seems that people gave you multiple listings of shelters and rescues that you could choose to adopt from. But finding guinea pigs isn't the issue for you, is it? The issue is that YOU want to breed so YOU can see/have guinea pig babies. Right?

How utterly and completely selfish. Have you ever thought that perhaps the sow does not want to have babies? Did you ever think that perhaps the sow would rather not risk her life to gratify your wish for guinea pig babies? Did you ever think that all those guinea pigs in shelters would rather not live there, that perhaps they would like to have one of those "good" homes your babies will go to?

And what makes you so sure that they'll go to good homes? Who's to say that these new, "good" owners won't have the same feelings and desires that you have? What happens if they want to breed the guinea pigs that you've so graciously bred for them? Are you going to jump in and say, "No, you shouldn't; there are so many risks and there's already an overpopulation problem." ?? Of course not ... that would be totally hypocritical of you (as YOU bred).

So, if your guinea pig sires 3 baby pigs, who all go to "good" homes, and those 3 babies each end up having 3 babies of their own (who all of course go to good homes) then you have 12 pigs right there, taking up 12 "good" homes that could have gone to pigs in rescues and shelters - pigs already in existence.

Do you know WHY there are so many rescues and shelters that have guinea pigs? It's because there are people like YOU out there, who insist on breeding and think they have so many "good" homes lined up. Then those "good" homes suddenly disappear when you have 15 or so guinea pigs that need homes, and you can't handle it anymore, and you have to do something, so you dump them at a shelter, dust off your hands, and think, "Well, that's that."

Here you have an excellent opportunity to show that you're mature and capable of seeing beyond yourself ... you have the opportunity to prove that you care more about your pets than you do about yourself. If you breed your guinea pig, you're only showing that you're selfish. Nothing more, nothing less.

[salana]

I can't imagine why masher doesn't feel she can "make a statement" on your board. It's not like you didn't delete the previous thread because it had an "argument".

That being said, we at Guinea Pig Cages do not like to be involved in "forum wars" between two forums. Inciting or aggravating such "wars" will lead to penalties. Please keep this in mind when you post on GPC and on your board regarding this situation.

[sollyrules]

Ok very sorry, unless i missed a bit in molly's post, she didnt say about me deleting the other one. I dont believe this is a forum war!

[masher]

After thinking about it was probably rather stupid to post about this on this board, not because I haven't had good replies, as I have had some excellent ones. Maybe it was abit foolish to cross forum post though, I just felt this would be one way that might connect to sollyrules line of thinking and make her see the consequences of breeding.

Sollyrules: I am guessing that Salana had read that on a post you made on the original thread

[JarBax]

Masher - it wasn't stupid atall - you were looking for ideas and further information to help you try and educate someone. That is an honourable thing to do!