Petco will do anything to make a sale

[rabbitsncavyluv]

Guinea Pig Cages

It says that the medium sized Marchiaro cage is 5.7 sq feet and suitable for one guinea pig - the same size as a 2 by 3 C&C.

[crazywiggy]

Rabbitsncavyluv - erm, sorry, but the Marchiaro is only 5.7 sq feet, the minimum c+c (2x3) is 7.5 - quite a lot bigger.

[Slave to the Wheek]

I'm clearly not part of the conversation you two are having but I would like to clarify one thing, so I'll join in on the hi-jacking

39"x21" is significantly smaller than a 2x3 CC cage. When we say 2x3 we are talking about grids, not feet.

Since Target is pretty much the main supplier of cage grids for people we should be looking at what their grid sizes are.

Cage grids are minimum of 14" square. That makes a 2gridx3grid cage
29.5" (with 1/2 inch per connector added) or 28" if you don't use connectors. for the width it's 44.5" length (again adding the additional inches for 5 connectors) or 42" without connectors Using those numbers, I get 9.11 square feet with connectors and 8.16 square feet without connectors for a 2x3grid cage.

Do folks assume that grids are one square foot when they see people use the term "2x3" and assume we are talking about square feet (as in 2'x3') and NOT as in 2grids X 3grids?

I don't know where those numbers on the home page come from but I do know that the cage on that link you are talking about is significantly smaller than a 2gridx3grid cage which I can tell just by looking and I don't even need to calculate that one.

[CavySpirit]

I understand that and think that is a GOOD and WONDERFUL start, BUT many rescues/shelters DON'T spueter due to the reasons you mentioned. Also even though a rescue might only adopt out same sex pairs, they cannot stop a determined person from going to another shelter/rescue to adopt one of the opposite sex if the person wants to start breeding. People also LIE on applications. So again, even if inadvertantly, shelters and rescues can be "percieved" to contribute in an indirect way to pet-overpopulation as well.

Your assumptions and theories on how you think shelters and rescues work are not grounded in reality.

Many responsible guinea pig rescues do in fact neuter boars as needed at our own expense. Despite what you think, NO ONE that adopts from me BREEDS their guinea pigs even though many could. And it ticks me off royally that you would even dare to suggest that rescues contribute in any way to pet overpopulation. You may as well slap me in the face with that comment. I would pay $1000 reward to any one who can come up with any proof that one of my hundreds of adopters over almost 10 years has bred their guinea pigs. Adopters are screened multiple times in multiple ways. Why do you think we don't adopt out to everyone who contacts us? I would estimate that rescues across the board probably have a 98-99% success rate of absolutely no breeding in any way.

And the VAST majority of people that go do shelters to adopt, go there because they know that there are animals in need of homes BECAUSE of pet overpopulation. They are already sensitive and appreciative of the issue. Any extremely minor percentage of whackos who would adopt shelter animals to breed are statistically insignicant and would NOT be contributing to pet overpopulation.

When rescues and shelters spueter EVERY small animal that comes through their doors, then they can point the finger of blame directly on pet-stores. That's all I'm sayin'

To that I say, "bull." Big time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

About Judi's cage specs:

In the pre-C&C days, she was the only advocate of larger cages. At the time, the ONLY larger cage available on the market was the Marchioro. They just got stuck in that rut. She was an early inspiration to me to promote larger cages. Unfortunately, the largest Marchioro still isn't big enough. I've used tons of them in big rescues (like the Hollister rescue and others). It's not an opinion. It's a fact based on observation of behavior of many guinea pigs.

JUST because GPC.com says that minimum cages sizes should be XXX, doesn't make it gospel. It is the opinion of the website owner and SOME members. Don't get me wrong, it is a GOOD opinion and one that does benefit the piggies. I have two large C&C cages myself, but that still doesn't mean this site has the ONLY right answers in regards to how big a cage should be.

It pretty much is gospel. The "OPINION" of this website owner, is not just the "OPINION" of A website owner. The FACTS stated on this website are based on the HEALTH & BEHAVIOR observations of multitudes of guinea pigs in a variety of cages and cage sizes over time--from someone withOUT an agenda of profit or turnover or maximizing the number of cages and pigs in a certain space. No pet owner has the same first-hand experience with the quantities of guinea pigs and cages. AND CONFIRMATION of the changes of behavior and health in quinea pigs is and has been validated by THOUSANDS of people around the world--not just SOME forum members.

[momof2pigs]

CS, I didn't realize that the rest of the cavy loving/owning world was wrong about their idea of minimum cage size. So anything less than 7.5 sq ft and the pig will be miserable? unhealthy? So, for all other cavy sites and cavy people around the WORLD who have housed GP's in roomy pet store cages such as the Marchiro don't see happy healthy popcorning pigs??? So if I did a poll of what behavior and longevity other pig owners have experienced they all would say their pigs withered away in something smaller than 7.5 sq ft??

AGAIN, I love your cage idea and have two for my pigs. They are roomy, sturdy, and cheap no doubt, but to take such offense at suggesting that MILLIONS of others are not wrong with housing their pigs in a "smaller" cage is a bit over-dramatic, IMHO.

Sorry that you find my comments about shelters/rescues INADVERTANTLY (possibly by accident) contributing to pet-overpopulation (and yes I agree that MOST people who go to shelters to adopt an animal go there because they are aware of the pet over-population issue) so offensive as well. My comment wasn't aimed at you and your rescue specifically. I am speaking more in generalities. I have heard story after story about hoarders who obtained many of their pets from shelters (not rescues) in addition to "free to good home ads" and so on.

You feel "slapped in the face"?? So do I, every time a lie is spewed about Petco. SOME of the things are true but many are NO LONGER true or were never true. However, after all this, I DO digress. It is "your" soapbox, podium, forum, etc. You can set it up and use it any way you like.

[Jennicat]

Can you show me a single case where a hoarder was busted and they got a significant amount of their animals from a rescue?

[salana]

You feel "slapped in the face"?? So do I, every time a lie is spewed about Petco.

Why? Are you responsible for corporate policy? Are you in charge of every Petco? No? Then don't get so pissy when people are upset about Petco!

I work in a Stop & Shop bakery. If you complain that bread at my store is moldy, I will get worked up over it. If you complain about the cakes at my store, I will get worked up over it. If you complain about your experience at some other Stop & Shop store, or some other department at my store, is it my fault? Should I take offense? No! If it's the meat department at my store, I can go to the meat manager and tell him, there's a customer complaining about the ground beef. If it's some other store, am I responsible? Even if it's a general statement of "Stop & Shop has outdated product in the bakery", I know that I make sure that at my store, products are pulled off the table before they go out of date. Which I might mention, and I might quote the company policy on this matter, but if it has been everyone else's experience in other stores...then it has, and it is not something for me to take offense over.

Similarly, if you are angry about the whole supermarket industry, it is not a personal attack on me. I can admit the faults of the company that employs me! The produce is overpriced, the dairy and eggs are ridiculously overpriced, and it would be absolutely ridiculous of me to deny it! It would also be absurd for me to get upset over someone criticizing Stop&Shop for $2.49 bunches of celery! And if you think the new commercials with the angry bleach are stupid, hell, I'm in full agreement with you there!

Apply this to yourself. We are saying the pet store industry contributes to overpopulation. Are we saying YOU are a bad person? Are we saying YOU breed? Are we saying YOU take bad care of the animals in your store? No! Should you feel personally attacked that our experience with Petco is that the company supports breeders and the industry causes/contributes to overpopulation and most Petcos have horrible conditions? No!

If you do feel personally attacked, I'm wondering if you are not as happy with being employed by Petco as you may think you are.

P.S. Just like I think the new Stop & Shop commercials with the angry bleach are stupid, I think the new Petco commercials about "People who love pets this much grow up to work at Petco" are wrong. People who love pets that much grow up to support animal rescue and do their part to reduce overpopulation!

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by momof2pigs

CS, I didn't realize that the rest of the cavy loving/owning world was wrong about their idea of minimum cage size.

Well, now you know.

Originally Posted by momof2pigs

So anything less than 7.5 sq ft and the pig will be miserable? unhealthy?

Miserable? Based on the dramatic changes in behavior when allowed the freedom to act naturally? No doubt you could apply that word --of yours--to more than a few guinea pigs. Unhealthy? For many? Yes. For many others--they'd be healthiER in a larger cage.

Originally Posted by momof2pigs

So, for all other cavy sites and cavy people around the WORLD who have housed GP's in roomy pet store cages such as the Marchiro don't see happy healthy popcorning pigs??? So if I did a poll of what behavior and longevity other pig owners have experienced they all would say their pigs withered away in something smaller than 7.5 sq ft??

roomy pet store cages? While the not very available and extremely expensive Marchioro cage is better than most, no, it is still not adequate.

So if I did a poll of what behavior and longevity other pig owners have experienced... You continue to miss the point. Pet owners do not have any other points of reference nor the experience of hundreds of guinea pigs over many years in multiple cage sizes. And duh, no pet owner is going to say, I didn't do the best for my guinea pig.

Originally Posted by momof2pigs

You feel "slapped in the face"?? So do I, every time a lie is spewed about Petco.

Umm, who's being overdramatic?

Originally Posted by momof2pigs

but to take such offense at suggesting that MILLIONS of others are not wrong with housing their pigs in a "smaller" cage is a bit over-dramatic, IMHO.

The entire Raison D'être of this site is the factually-supported premise that keeping pigs in cages that are too small is not proper care and this is a grass roots effort to convert those 'millions' to the right way. So, if you want to call the site and forum my soapbox, well then, yes it is.

[wolfie]

I can personally attest to the fact that the extra large Marchioro cages are not easily available, are incredibly expensive and do not provide adequate space. The only experience I have is with our own 2 guinea pigs. I believe that I have a moral and ethical obligation to provide any animal brought into our family with the highest quality of life possible. That is why the Marchioro now sits empty in the basement. I hope it will never see the light of day unless I need it to quarantine a new adopted pig. Although the health and happiness of our boys were the ONLY points of reference I needed to make the change, I would not have known how to make the change without this site/forum. Is there any standing room left on the soapbox?

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by wolfie

Is there any standing room left on the soapbox?

Thank you. Yes, it's a huge soapbox, lot's of room available.

[mini'smama]

I used to use what were considered to be "roomy" guinea pig cages by the local Pet Quarters store. My guinea pigs spent increasing amounts of time just laying around sleeping.

Then, in April of 2004, my husband built a modified version of the C&C cage for all of our pigs. With their new cages, my pigs began to change. Suddenly, I had six popping happy active piggies, who would respond to and interact with US.

We did all of the cages for less than $ 50 TOTAL. Very big cages.

I've joined you folks on the soap box. (uh...what kind of soap is in the box?)

[piggly wiggly]

I am very happy to sayI found this site the night before I was going out to but my guinea pig at a store. Unfortunately I had bought a store cage that day, but I did return it the next day. I found a rescue site, and contacted them, I did have to drive 2 hours each way to the foster home to pick up my piggy. I made a 2 x4 grid c&c cage. I then adopted another piggy, long story short, I am back to one piggy ( a loner pig) and he is still in his kingdom of a 2x4. He would not have it any other way!
( squeeze over all, may I join the soapbox podium?)

[akintolife]

I'm lucky in that I was able to get a relativly large petshop cage (about the equilivent of a 1.5x2.5 C&C), but as soon as I found out about the C&C cage made one, the difference was amazing. To see my girls go from being so shy they would run away to girls that complain that their food isn't there on time and almost jumping out of their C&C to greet me when I get home is wonderful.

And of course it amuses me for hours wathing them all zoom around, popcorn and just generally be happy pigs.

I still have my petshop cage, but it's only ever used for short-term fosters and for keeping sick piggies quarantined.

[Slave to the Wheek]

I just can't figure out a way to approach this. The reasoning that because other people do it and their animals survive, that what they are doing is therefore equal to what I'm doing is faulty.

You simply cannot ignore the fact that guinea pigs, however tiny and inexpensive they are, deserve a "quality of life" as much as any other creature who is held in captivity by a human being. Simply because an animal can survive in certain conditions does not mean that it does not go into slow insanity or depression.

I can't help but use zoos as an example of how faulty the reasoning is. Only 40 short years ago it was considered perfectly appropriate to force tigers, bears, lions and other large animals to live in an 8ftx10ft cage for it's entire life. Chimpanzees, apes and orangutan's were house in similar cages, on cement slabs and fed "monkey chow" from Purina as their sole source of food. Giraffes, gizelles, and other grazing animals were housed in small paddocks where the idea of running would be preposterous. At night, they moved them into barns on cement floors.

Would you consider THESE acceptable conditions for these amazing creatures? Would you expect to walk into a zoo today and see animals housed in such squalid conditions? You shouldn't. Simply because over the slow development of zoos, they began to realize that people simply found no joy in looking at the OBVIOUS and PAINFUL effects it had on those animals. As a child, I HATED the zoo. In 1967 the Sacramento Zoo was a horrible place to go. I do not know what to call it besides having an empathic streak in me, but when I saw those animals I could FEEL that it was wrong. I could sense at the age of 5 that there was something horribly wrong with the place. It wasn't fun to see the animals at all. It was depressing and painful and I never wanted to go. In those days, the school took you on a field trip every year. I hated it.

Over the last 4 decades zoo's have transformed themselves. They have learned that their animals are HEALTHIER, live LONGER, and have SANITY so they are EASIER TO HANDLE. This isn't an OPINION. This is what happened.

This is precisely what is happening in the guinea pig world. There was a time BEFORE THE INTERNET, when the people who spoke for the guinea pigs were NOT the pet owners. They were 2 groups of people. The animal researchers and the breeders who supplied animals to them. They were the people who decided what the "appropriate sized" cage was and what the appropriate diet was.

What do you THINK was their main concern? First, that the animals cost the least possible, require the least amount of energy to maintain, and take up the least amount of space possible. Since cavies can survive in amazingly small amount of space, these researcher/breeders found it very convenient for them to do their work with vast numbers of animals. The longevity of the animals was not known in those days. So, when animals housed under such conditions average 2-4 years of life--that is what they decided how long to expect them to live. When they got bumblefoot all the time because they housed them on wire floors, then these people simply decided that guinea pigs were "prone" to bumblefoot/foot fungus. The fact that what they were doing is what was causing the problem in the first place simply wasn't considered, since the breeders were the ones who told them how to house the animals. It took years for people to put two and two together.


Now, even ANIMAL RESEARCHERS understand that they have a responsibility to provide appropriate living conditions for guinea pigs, and that the way it was done in the past is WRONG.

Even in prisons, they know that what it does to a human being to lock them in a small room.

Guinea pigs are grazing animals. To insist that because breeders ignore that fact, and use tiny cages to house them so that they can keep as many as possible in as small of space as possible is no excuse to ignore that basic personality trait. There is simply no excuse for modern people to excuse away behavior once they know it's wrong.

In the past, before the internet, there simply were not enough pet owners out there, and they were not organized so there was no way for them to scream that such conditions were completely inappropriate. Guinea pigs were kids toys, and not REAL pets and were never provided with the level of expected care that one would assume. Instead, they were relegated to a tiny cage hidden in the corrner of a bedroom. Housed in cages that many kids wouldn't even put their HAMSTERS in, forced to live on cedar chips and were never expected to live past 2 years.

Now, they are becoming an adult's pet more and more. Now pet owners feed them veggies, hay and pellets. We house them in large airy CC cages. We provide them with veterinary care. We learn about disorders, and we band together to learn as much from each other as possible. It's now common for them to live 6 years with many going up to 9 or even 10.


Where is the problem?