What is Rescuing and Adopting

[VoodooJoint]

Originally Posted by mommyoffive

that will not change my views on exotics breeding, especially with fish.

So you think piranha should be legal to sell again? Do you think it's a good idea to sell leopard sharks, stingrays and moray eels to the general public?

You think it's a good idea for people to be allowed to go out and buy a bear, tiger or lion cub to keep in their backyards?

How about sugar gliders? Those are pretty harmless right? You think it's a good idea for anyone with the money to spend to be allowed to own these animals?

Should petsmart be allowed to sell toucans and flamingos? Why not sell baby alligators as well?

I'm curious what you think about regular people being able to go out and buy those types of animals with no regulations and little restrictions being in place.

[Piggersrule]

Mommyoffive, Since you don't have a problem with breeding birds,reptiles and fish than I guess you won't have a problem with taking in all the unwanted ones that people dump because they are tired of them. Maybe that would change your mind.....you think???

[Piggersrule]

Originally Posted by jackie158

Since this is the kitchen, I am going to express my opinion. I know someone on another forum that is a breeder. It is sick. And she thinks she is responsible. Like someone said, if you think haveing breeders cages the size of a 1 x 1, not pairing your pig with any other pig because you are afrid other piggies will barber the hair and wrapping tissue/tin foil in a pigs hair "to keep a nice coat," is responsible, you better guess again. I would hate to see the people who really neglect animals if breeders who do this think it is ok. It plain out makes me sick. I am starting to hate breeders. Plain and simple, they are clearly in it for one thing and one thing only and thats money and prizes.

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!!!

[seagirl96]

Visit a rescue of any type of animal,talk to the people who run it and listen to the stories of unwanted pets and I think you will end up agreeing with Voodoojoint.

Does anyone want to buy a rattlesnake? You can, you know.

[Piggersrule]

About a hundred years ago I was in a pet store, while looking around I could hear something in the back of the store. I went to go investigate and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was a monkey in this tiny metal crete like cage. The cage was a metal tomb with bars in the front. This poor monkey had no room to move around. The lady that was running the store came up to me and said "Isn't he cute" I said "not really, not in a cage" As I was looking at this monkey I noticed he had no teeth. The lady said in order to sell a monkey his teeth had to be pulled out. I was so mad that when the lady tried to give my some lame explanation I turned away and walked out slamming her door closed. I often wonder what ever happened to that poor monkey. It makes me sick what people will sell for money.

[seagirl96]

That is so horrible! I hope the poor thing died quickly. That's better than the life of suffering and poor health that little creature was in for.

[Piggersrule]

He probably suffered like so many unwanted animals do. Til this day I can still see the suffering this poor monkey was going through in his eyes. The way he was looking at me just broke my heart. Just once I would love to take the person who treats animals like this and stuff their butts in a too small of a cage with no food and water and let them sit in their own filth and see how they like it....take that you stupid animal abuser!!

[seagirl96]

Here's an interesting web site that explains why it's a bad idea to buy exotic pets: The Exotic Pet Trade

It says that the Austin zoo is contacted six to ten times a year by people who bought large cats, most commonly tigers, and need to get rid of them. That's ONE zoo in One year. The site makes some alternative suggestions for people who think they a tiger or a panther.

[corie dora]

As a newbie here, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most folks here probably aren't very into the aquarium hobby. Unlike most other animal hobbyist groups, aquarium hobby clubs are not aimed solely at breeding and competing, but at educating, and learning about fish, tank building, making your own fish food, propagating aquatic plants and all kinds of other stuff.

Fish are much different than other pets, and its important to recognize that. My fish club runs a fish rescue program, which, though it is rarely used, is widely successful. Yes, there are unwanted fish, mostly big oscars and piranhas, originating from mass producers who supply petshops, not the small colourful hobbyist types of fish. I don't think any of the fish that have ever been placed have been 'hobbyist fish'. Most advanced fish hobbyists don't keep the types of fish found in pet shops, which are horridly mass produced by largescale breeders in florida and singapore, have terrible genetics,and are disease prone.

The awful genetics of pet shop fish is one of the reasons why it is important for fish hobbyists to breed fish and circulate them through responsible channels. If the pet fish are only bred by these irresponsible breeders who continually line breed, inbreed and rarely outcross, trying so hard to produce crazy new strains....the species deteriorates rapidly. Real fish hobbyists who breed only breed the natural types, and work hard to outcross with different bloodlines to keep the fish pure, and clean, and with good genetics and strong health.

In fact there are programs to reintroduce some species of fish (haplochromis genus, and goodeid genus) which became extinct in the wild due to watershed mismanagement in third world countries, including Lake Victoria (I believe Nyassa) and some lakes/rivers in South America (don't remember exactly which country...somewhere near the Andes though). And you know where the fish populations came from for these programs? The fish hobbyist community. Many zoos over the globe are working with local fish hobbyist groups to gain individuals to put towards their stock aimed at reintroduction to native habitats. This keeps the genetic pool of these animals as varied as possible, which is crucial to the survival of any species in the wild. There are a few species which have been successfully reintroduced, and several which are being maintained this way through a global effort, with the hopes of reintroducing them in the future.

FYI, the watershed mismanagement is either pollution (in SA) or introduction of non-native species (nile perch in Africa) for food fishing. It has nothing to do with wild collecting ornamental fish, something many real fish hobbyists now largely frown upon.

Fish hobbyist clubs are more recently also key in encouraging govts in many south american and south east asian countries to adopt collection policies that are ecologically more responsible, and not to just rape their waters for the pet trade. Beacause of monies raised by hobby groups and initiatives taken, many tropical countries now have a regulated trade, with imposed catch limits, checking stations, regulated export, and collectors licenses. Not entirely ideal, but a BIG step up from the unabashed collections and ecological devastation which formerly took place.

Many Canadian cities (including the one my fish club is based out of) also has a complete ban on the trade of wild collected fish. While this unfortunately is not any better for animal welfare (which is what the ban was aimed at, it was initiated by PETA) due to the terrible nature of mass fish producers now taking the place of wild collectors, it is much better ecologically, which at least IMO is iVERY important.

At any rate, I think its important to recognize that fish are a lot different than mammals. If you do occasionally breed fish, it is also really easy to house several hundred small fish happily and healthily in a tank in your basement or elsewhere in your house, until one of your fish geek friends wants to trade you for that 'great new plant' they just propagated, or give you the plans to the new filter they just invented. Actually most hobbyists who occasionally breed, don't really look for homes for their fish offspring, they just keep them on...if a fellow fish geek ever wants some, then they scoop some out and share the wealth.

Generally speaking, most fish will also stop breeding (but not growing, that's a myth) when the tank hits 'capacity'. So you can have a 50 gallon tank, stock it with your favorite little cichlids from a few of your buddy's tanks and when they've filled the tank, you have a colony. That's that. When the oldest fish complete their lifecycle, some of the young ones will start to reproduce, until the tank hits capacity again. (**capacity is usually determined by territory, not by water quality or available food as is sometimes thought)

Breeding fish is also very difficult. Its not really something that happens by accident. And if it does, then the parents usually gulp them down, another part of the natural fish world. If you want to raise up some fish, it takes a lot of time and money, daily water changes, hatching brine shrimp eggs in finicky hatching jars, making your own specialty feeds...Its NOT very idiot proof by any stretch of the imagination. The average person would be lucky if they kept fish for 20+ years and they spawned twice, and they got one offspring out of hundreds of eggs.

Its not the same type of pet over population complexities as when mammals breed.

I wouldn't expect anyone who is not involved directly with the aquarium hobby to know about that, it isn't very widely spread info. But now that you do know, perhaps if any other fish geeks than myself stumble upon here, you can have a little better understanding about it. And more importantly, when you meet a fish geek who has bred their fish, you can better accept them into your circle of friends, beacause its always good to have more friends

Its important for anyone, to not judge what they don't know. At the same time, we all do it sometimes, especially when it comes to things important and close to our hearts like animal welfare. So I personally would never fault anyone for thinking negatively of fish hobbyists who occasionally breed. (well at least those who are just ignorant about it through lack of education. Anyone who's read this, well then I'd fault you!!! hehehe, *wink*)

Just thought I'd clear that up.

Corie =^..^=

[aeonkat]

I agree with Voodoojoint. I think any un-domesticated animal should not be able to be kept as a pet. We need to stop with the zoos and stop destroying their habitat so they won't need to live in zoos so they won't become extinct. Its about time we start treating animals as we would treat ourselves. I absolutely love reptiles. I will not own any because they deserve to live in their natural habitat, along with fish and birds. It took me a while and a lot of research to even consider getting a cavy. Along with cats and dogs (domesticated) I don't see any other animal as pet-able (yeah I made that word up). I would have adopted a cat(s) if I could have but I live in an apartment.

I don't support zoos. I don't take my kids to them. A lot of people think I am depriving them, but I want my children to learn that animals in cages are not the norm.

[corie dora]

I completely agree with you Aeoncat, for the most part. Until, you look at the bigger picture...

Its about time we start treating animals as we would treat ourselves.

Most of the human population is mal-nourished. Either scraping to stay alive in a third world country or grossly over fed and undernourished from a fast food diet (I've been to AZ so I know you know what this means!!!). We drink alcohol until we pass out. We smoke ciggarettes until we fall ill and die. We drink caffeine to keep us awake when our bodies tell us we need rest. If we are a little under the weather, we take chemicals which make us feel ok even if we need to rest and heal. As we age, we pound our bodies with synthetic hormones to trick us into feeling young again. Then we die a painful and agonizing death from liver failure or coronary overload or get killed by someone else in an accidental but likely preventable motor vehicle crash.

I wouldn't wish any animal to be treated the way we treat ourselves!!!! (please note, I understand that this is only the norm, and that yes, some of us do look after ourselves)

Ideally, I agree, zoos would be a thing of the past, with animals roaming safely and freely in the wild. People would live harmoniously with nature, respect the environment, themselves and their children. However, not all people are capable of this kind of thought. Honestly, its sad, but it appears that most people don't think up stuff like this on their own.

Beacause of zoos, we have secured all kinds of wildlife refuges, and saved many habitats which would have otherwise been consumed by the greedier types. By allowing the uneducated, and out of touch people to see animals, and learn about them they develop a sense of attachment for them, and on their way out the zoo gates...make a charitable donation to organizations such as the World Wildlife Fund or Friends of the Rainforest, who are making real life differences in maintaining some degree of global biodiversity. Without many of the greater zoos, we would not have all kinds of re-intorduction programs, educational programs for schools, and initiatives to save habitats.

In my local area (southern Ontario) we are now starting to see bald eagles again, thanks in part to a joint initiative by the toronto zoo, and WWF, and some other groups.

In the foothills of the canadian rockies, the black footed ferret is fast making a comeback and has been denoted from an endangered species to a threatened species, and will hopefully make it off that list too. The Toronto zoo is also involved in a re-introductory breeding program for the ferrets.

Now, it needs to be recognized that there are all different kinds of zoos. Like you, never ever in my wildest dreams would I take my child to a roadside zoo to view caged animals. Perhaps as a teenager, only as a lesson in the wrongs of society, followed by some kind of peaceful protest preferably!

But some of the larger zoos, which operate as vehicles for saving habitat, and educational tools for the public...which house their animals in large fenced acreages, when you're lucky if you actually get to see any of them as the zoo train goes by, the habitats are so large they're often hidden from site. They operate only as non-profit organizations. Most of their animals come to them as rescues, mothers killed by poachers, mamed in a trap, liberated from a roadside zoo or life as an exotic pet....

They're really doing us more good than harm.

I know its sad, so sad that a few individuals live this way to benefit the masses. But unfortunately, not all humans are as fortunate as you to come into the world with a soft spot for animals, and as such need more than just a little nudge to push them in that direction.

[aeonkat]

LOL. I guess not Corie. But I do think in the sense of caging animals (zoos, homes) to stare at is unfair. Animals are not here for our entertainment.

[bamby71994]

I adopted mine from a petstore and I hope none of you think I am bad because of it. I adopted him before I knew about petstores he well be one year old in two months. I know for the next one that I will for sure adopt. My mother does not like adoption and believes in breeders but not mills. I have talked her out of all animals except the dogs. I tried my best. Now I look on two shelter sites everyday one was for sale and I was going to get him but by the time I was able to go there I checked and he was gone. Thats ok because I can take a long time to find one that likes my old boar.

[pigsforlife]

Just wanted to point out - you are not adopting if you go and get an animal from a petstore/breeder.

This is a generalised comment and is not aimed at anyone.