"Dangerous dogs"

[crazywiggy]

Seeing as it wasn't relevant to the other thread I thought I would start a new one about pit bulls and other so-called dangerous dogs.

Maybe I shouldn't have picked up on one comment about "killing machines with pedigrees" - but this is supposed to be an animal welfare friendly board, and the kitchen is the place to discuss such issues.

Pit bulls are a welfare issue because it is the "killer dog" attitude that causes thousands of innocent dogs to be killed or attacked (fed broken glass etc) and banned.

When I said some breeders breed for the right reasons I wasn't trying to start a discussion about breeding per se. I know there are thousands of dogs in shelters and I'm not saying it is right to breed more. The point I was making was that people claim pit bulls are "bred to kill". This is simply not true - certainly not in all cases. Yes, there are still some morons who own and breed dogs for fighting, but there are also pit bull breeders who breed their dogs as show dogs, working/sporting/therapy dogs and as companions. So no, not all pit bulls are bred to kill. Many are bred to be loving family pets, to play with the kids, sleep on the sofa, catch a frisbee.

They may be brave, they may look scary, have a bad reputation etc. but at the end of the day a pit is just a dog. No more, no less.

So what do people think?

[cookie_gal]

This is a topic to really make my blood boil! The reason they are nasty is all down to us selfish idiotic humans! They should put down the owners of these dogs that are fighters! I would have no problem doing so.

this website is very good: Sorry Again, this time about SB 861

In the UK there has been a rise in the number of staffie thefts, I wonder why? could it be that now they are giving up pit bulls, they are hoping to train these lovely staffies?

[thalestral]

It is my opinion that there is no such thing as a dangerous dog breed, only dangerous humans.

[crazywiggy]

Those "I'm sorry" videos and the other BSL ones actually brought me to tears and that's a rare thing.

[Jennicat]

I agree with this 100%. Most people cannot even correctly identify a "pit bull" dog.

Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull

That was quite eye opening to me.

Another thing that annoys me are the urban legends surrounding these dogs. That their brains grow too bit for their heads, and their jaws lock, etc. I wish people would remember when these things were being said about German Shepherds. Growing up with one, my parents were told many times that the dog would snap and lock it's jaws on me and kill me. I'm still waiting.

[caribear]

I did find the pit bull correctly. I enjoyed looking @ all the different breeds. I am into dogs. I have had dogs before piggies. I love our doggie. I do think that dogs are killer dogs because of their training or lack thereof.

I did used to have 2 dogs. One however(Belle) did bite my little boy. We had to find another good home for her. To this day I don't know why she bit him. He had to have 7 stiches in his head! It was terrible. I train both of my dogs(sit, stay, wait, turn off lights, to "pray", etc.) I was right there(w/in 2ft) & saw it when Belle came @ my son. My son was standing next to Belle, she suddenly turned around & bite him on the head. It was a huge gash-it happened so fast I had no time to help. Blood was dripping everywhere! It took me quite some time to feel comfort again even w/ our other dog(Emma). I do trust Emma now-you just get alittle jumpy w/ something like that. Emma is wonderful-I think the best dog anyone could ever get.

So I do think that competely agressive dogs are taught to be that way. However I think that ANY dog can bite. I sometimes have a hard time believing that Emma would bite, she's so good. I am not even sure she would bite if provoked, however I have to remember what happen w/ the other dog. Now the 2 dogs personalities were WAY different. Belle was very hyper, Emma is VERY laid back. I personally think that had something to do w/ it-their personality.

Well, that's my 2 cents worth.

[TheQueen]

I agree as well. I know someone with two pitbulls and they are just as friendly and loving as my labrador. Just because a pitbull is a pitbull does not mean it has to have the personality generalized with a pitbull. The same goes for any dog - a "gentle" poodle could be a biting, attacking, mean dog. It simply depends on the person who raised and owned the dog, and how they did it. At the end of the day, they are all dogs, but their personalities differ because of how they were raised.

The same goes for German Shepherds, Dobermans, and Rottweilers. Seriously, tons of people in my area are scared to death of Rottweilers. My own parents are convinced that if you pet one they will bite your hand off. I, for one, think rottweilers are one of the most beautiful animals in existence. Obviously, if they are raised to fight or were mistreated, they could very well bite your hand off. But if I raised one, they would be as gentle and playful as the neighbor's jack russel.

People are so quick to stereotype. I wish everyone would realize that it was the human race in the first place that made these dogs what they are.

Originally Posted by Jennicat

Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull

I got it on the first try! Woo!

[VoodooJoint]

I'm going to be honest in what I have seen as a rescuer. I don't want anyone to take this as me being against pit bulls or any breed in particular but it's just what I have seen, experianced, researched and believe.

Pit Bulls have been bred from the beginning to be strong, loyal, to have aggresive personalities, strong jaws and to hunt/fight not only pigs, boars and other animals but also each other. Like many other breeds these tendencies are hard wired into them just like a retriever would want to retrieve/fetch and a border collie would want to herd.

Living in an area where pit bull fighting is a huge problem I have come to learn that some dogs are bred better then others. It can be a crap shoot what kind of pit bull you bring into your home as a pet.

Yes, most of the time the dogs' that bite are caused by bad ownership. These are dogs that were never sociallized and are over aggresive. When they get loose they do not know how to interact and their protective nature goes into overdrive. They bite and attack without cause.

I do feel that there is still a risk even if you raise a pit bull (in particular) in your home from a puppy with love and proper social skills.

Fighting dogs, of any breed, go through a stage called "clicking on". This usually happens at about 2 years old. That is the age that "profesional" and organized dog fighters can first "successfully" fight and evaluate a dog. In this stage what was once a playful, loving dog turns into a fighter, for no reason other then genetics. You cannot tell which dog is which and all have the potential to suddenly attack other dogs, animals or humans for no reason. Some dogs never act on it and you never have the heartbreak of finding out what your dog is capable of. I was not one of those lucky people.

Years ago I had a dalmation/pit mix. I adopted her from the SPCA at about 4-5 months old. She was raised with love and good training in my home with my kids. She went to work with me everyday (we owned our own store) and there she spent her days greeting and playing with the customers and people who would just come in to visit with her. She was the love of my life; sweet, affectionate, gentle, loyal and playful.

At about 2 years old she suddenly, and without obvious reason, started attacking our other dog. A dog she was raised with. I tried behaviourists, vets, medications, training, everything. Nothing helped. It became so bad that we had to keep our 2 dogs seperated. This wasn't easy and occationally they would get together and fight. She put our other dog into the hospital at least 7 times.

The only link we could find was my children. She seemed more aggresive towards other dogs when my children were around. Soon it was any dog. If I was walking her on the street with my children she started trying to go after other dogs. In my store I had the same problem (if my kids were there). If my children weren't with me out in public she acted fine with other dogs.

In he end I had to rehome her. I needed to protect her from herself. I knew that if one day she got into a fight and a person (especially a child) was harmed it would be a death sentence for her. I managed to place her in a good home with no other pets and no children. Last I heard she is doing well with no other fighting problems.

I went to the SPCA and did some research to see if I could find physical truth to this "clicking on" theory. What I found from dogs surrendered for biting/fighting was that they were about 2 years old when the problem started and it came without warning.

I talked to many other people that also had esperiances like mine. I found that it was not uncommon. Some people had better luck dealing with the issue then I did and managed to keep their dog while keeping the dog and other dogs/people safe.

I have also rescued from the street and dog fighter yards dogs that have fought their whole lives and were so covered with scars they looked lumpy and mangled. Many of these dogs licked my hands and face and showed no aggression but their obvious histories were a death sentence for them anyway.

It's not just pits. It's also many other breeds like Akitas and Chows, etc.. But pit bulls are more common. Those are the ones we hear about. They are not monsters. Humans just messed with their beginnings so much that it's hard to get rid of the traits we screwed up on.

I now have a retriever/pit mix. I love him but he's a handful. I don't 100% trust him and watch him like a hawk. He has passed the "click on" time but so far has not "gone bad". He is pushy and dominant and needs constant reminders of who is boss (otherwise he'll take over the home) but he is also funny and playful and we all love him.

The end point is that it's not always how they are raised. There are genetic traits we are fighting and until the dog fighters are shut down and stop breeding overly aggresive dogs it may be a losing battle for pit bulls.

[pdqgp]

Rots are great and can be one of the best dogs with kids. Having two Boxers myself and had them all my life, some of the key things folks with working dogs (any dog really) need to remember:

Dogs need proper training. One has to be will and able to train and control their dog.

Children should never be left alone with larger more powerful dogs. Accidents do happen and even with our pups I won't leave them alone outside with them Rough Play is fun, but can also be horrific for kids and they do instigate it.

All dogs are protective by instinct. I know this to be a pure fact with our very lovable and big babies. Once we moved into our new home, the level jumped up. Adding a fence to our yard amplified it. After having kids, the level has gone up even more. Our pups are very sensitive to yelling or any strangers, especially in the presence of my kids. I am absolutely mindful of that too. Just last night our female came running/barking real low to me in protective manner when I yelled to my wife in the basement while I was in the kitchen.

I would also recommend anyone with a larger dog look into taking out third party insurance. I don't yet mind this in my own home, which could perhaps be a mistake, but with a Rot, Doby, Shepard or a Pit, I would strongly recommend it....even if you're married to a lawyer

Originally Posted by TheQueen

My own parents are convinced that if you pet one they will bite your hand off. I, for one, think rottweilers are one of the most beautiful animals in existence.

[Terekins]

I picked up that too. I don't remember which post it was in, but it took me by surprise and I was a little irked.
I agree, as some people have said, that certain breeds have the potential to be extremely aggressive, and personality always has a lot to do with it. However, I think human interference is to blame for this tendency (through breeding) and that the way a dog is raised and treated accounts for 90% of its disposition.
I don't think it's fair to lump all dogs together into a "dangerous" category because of their breed.

[Pamela Barr]

My brother in law's pit bull was allowed to run loose and would come home bloody all the time from fighting or killing other animals (thank God no people were hurt that I know of anyway). He was given this pup after it was weaned so it was never mistreated but just loved to hunt and kill. He would travel to my house (2 miles) to attack my collie and one day killed him. We had a huge family fall-out over this. Then several months later the pit bull went out and never came back home, I believe a neighbor shot him and I'm glad. I've heard and don't know if it's true that they change after two years old, something about their brain growing bigger than their skull or something.

[Emmett]

VJ, I totally agree. Purebred dogs are bred for a purpose and pitbulls' purpose are to fight. I get tired of hearing people telling me it's how a dog is raised not the breed. I tell them when you can teach a lab to hate water, a border collie not to herd and a poodle how not to manipulate people I'll believe it. My worst experience with a pit was watching it play with a cockapoo nicely and then just snap and try to kill it. I have read pro pitbull sites that say after the dog turns 3 years old not to ever leave it alone with another animal even if they have lived together all their lives. I have mixed feeling about breed bans I hate to see dogs taken away from their loving owners but I also have a problem with dangerous dogs that may attack a human or animal. I sort of feel they should be all neutered and spayed and go slowly extinct. I don't consider that cruel since there isn't really any need for fighting dogs. And it's not as if there isn't going to be enough other breeds of dogs in shelters that need.

[TX_2_Pigs]

We had a full blood German Shepard when I was growing up. He was a trained police dog. He had been hit by a car while on duty and had to be "retired". You did not run through our yard when he was out and you did not roughhouse with us when he was inside. Everyone knew this and everyone was warned. We never had any serious problems. I did get nipped once, but I was roughhousing with my sister and he was trying to break it up. And he hated the 4th of July.

[Jennicat]

Originally Posted by Emmett

VJ, I totally agree. Purebred dogs are bred for a purpose and pitbulls' purpose are to fight. I get tired of hearing people telling me it's how a dog is raised not the breed. I tell them when you can teach a lab to hate water, a border collie not to herd and a poodle how not to manipulate people I'll believe it.

So because I've seen a border collie with no herding drive and a lab that hated water, does this mean I prove your point? I also own an Aussie that's as dumb as a rock, bless her.

But glad to see that people base their "knowledge" off of personality.

VJ: I am sorry about the problem that you had with your dog. But it's quite common knowledge among pit bull fanciers that most female pit bulls will begin to have dog aggression issues past the age of approximately 1 1/2 to 2 years. As you can see from your own experience, dog aggression and people aggression are two separate issues.

[crazywiggy]

I would still come back to my point about most dogs being the product of the way they are raised. Please don't misunderstand - not all of these people abuse or neglect their dogs, but it is easy to make mistakes when rearing or training a dog. A lot of people genuinely love their dogs, but realise they have problems because they didn't lay down any ground rules, didn't do enough / appropriate socialisation, misread the dogs body language etc. Unfortunately most people know very little about dog behaviour - so they are genuinely surprised when problems arise.

Pamela - No offence, but your brother was not a responsible dog owner, letting his dog run loose like that. He proves my point exactly. There is no excuse for such behaviour - and the same consequences could have happened whatever breed he owned.

Incidentally the brain growth thing is a myth - it has no basis in fact whatsoever.

It seems like a coincidence does it not that people claim these dogs change at around 2-3 years old? Oh yes, that would be puberty.... the time where all those hormones kick in, the dog (males more than females) becomes more competitive and aggressive towards other dogs, more protective / dominant etc, and the time they start to push the boundaries, training goes askew etc. This is when most of the problems occur in all breeds/crossbreeds of dog. It is almost always possible to work through it through training, behaviour modification, neutering etc. This is also the time it matters whether the dog got the right socialisation at the correct time (before 12 weeks of age), that your dog is well trained already, even amid distractions etc.

Part of the problems with banning pit bulls (aside from the total injustice and pointlessness of it) is where does it end?
Some of you say there is no need for fighting dogs so we may as well ban them. Okay - so ban pits.... and bulldogs, mastiffs, boxers etc. These were bred to kill other animals.
As it happens, every single breed of hound and terrier was also bred to kill other animals, so lets wipe them out too. Everything from the yorkshire terrier, to the Irish wolfhound, the beagle to the airdale. Oh yes, and "guarding breeds" are obviously dangerous, so destroy them - rotts, dobes, german shepherds etc.
Then maybe we should look at dogs that have been responsible for human fatalities - so we ban the labrador, cocker spaniel, collie, dachshund and pomeranion!

Banning a breed will not reduce dog attacks.