"Dangerous dogs"

[Jennicat]

Originally Posted by __ben

I don't agree with banning the breed because they could present danger to society. Humans present danger to other humans but we dont kill them for the danger, only after they commit a crime do we lock up or kill humans. Why not with dogs too?

A good point.

I found some very interesting statistics:

NationMaster - Statistics > Bitten or struck by dog by country
26 people killed by dogs in the US in 2004.

NationMaster - Statistics > Fall involving bed by country
450 people killed in a fall involving a bed.

NationMaster - Statistics > Contact with hornets, wasps and bees by country
54 killed by bees, wasps, or hornets

NationMaster - Statistics > Contact with hot tap-water by country
55 killed by contact with hot tap water

NationMaster - Statistics > Victim of lightning by country
50 killed by lightning

NationMaster - Statistics > Victim of volcanic eruption by country
3 killed by volcanic eruption.

You're twice as likely to be killed by bees or tap water as dogs, and only have 1/8th of the chance of being killed by a volcano as a dog. This means, of course, that you can't approach your bed... it's a deadly killer.

[this_lil_piggy]

OK, now that we have this in a better place to discuss it....

I don't know why it would shock you that because I am an active member on an animal welfare board, that I might actually dislike some breeds of animals. I support and encourage animal welfare, but that doesn't mean I have lost my ability to think for myself or to occasionally have a different opinion on some things. I am not vegetarian either, does that shock you or make me less welcome here? I think not.
Just because I have a strong opinion about pit bull temperaments, doesn't mean or imply that I think they should be killed. Those were your words and assumptions, putting words in my mouth. I do not agree that my opinion on pit bull temperaments has any bearing on whether they are banned, or killed, or how the population at large views them. I don't go out and picket against pit bulls, I will not take responsibility for their reputation. I do not trust the breed, and do not think they are a wise breed to have around children and other animals, that is my opinion, and I believe this is the first time I have ever even publicly mentioned as much.

VJ put my feelings into better perspective than I ever could have sat here and explained. I don't think all pit bulls are bad, I don't think pit bulls are the only animals that can turn bad. I do however stand by my opinion that pit bulls have been bred down the lines to be aggressive, strong animals, and they can be a larger risk to own than many other breeds. My ONLY point in my comment was that some people will willingly drive 6 hours to bring an animal that has a bad reputation of being aggressive and killers into their homes around their children, but they are baffled why people like us would drive 6 hours to rescue a "disposable pet/stupid little rodent".

I absolutely disagree that any animal that turns aggressive always does so due to bad training, neglect, abuse, or any other human inflicted reason. Maybe some do, maybe most do, I don't really know. I do know though, that I was owned by a precious shihtzu for 15 yrs. I had her from the time she could fit in the palm of my hand, before my human kids came along, and she always was one of my kids. She was always well cared for, treated properly, loved immeasurably, was never neglected, abused, or ill trained. In the last 2 years of her life though, she did begin to turn aggressive. Why? Health. She was going blind and deaf, she was suffering with severe allergies and asthma. We did everything we could in way of vet visits, medications, and adjustments in our home to keep her comfortable, happy, and able to easily move about. Still, she began to frequently nip, growl, and bite us, I suspect mainly because her vision and hearing were so poor and she was caught off guard. We had to rehome our daschund because the shihtzu became territorial and would attack her if she neared her, tried to eat or drink, got near us, or whatever she did to get on her nerves that day. Dessy was an absolute sweet heart, and all of this came completely as a surprise as her health declined. It broke my heart to see her change so dramatically, and I think I will forever have a hole in my heart that aches for her.


You never saw me insinuate that I support the killing of pits, and you never will. But, I don't have to enjoy or even like the breed, and it is my choice to not expose myself, my animals, or my kids to them.

My bed is about 12" off the floor, I try to avoid wasps, bees, and hornets, I am very careful with my tap water, I don't live near volcanoes, and I have been struck by lightening on a sunny day and lived to tell about it.

I don't live in a bubble, but I don't take many risks either.
I don't reckon we should kill killers before they kill.........but I also wouldn't bring a criminal home to live with me.

[crazywiggy]

This lil piggy:

I'm sorry if I have angered or offended you by my comments, I honestly didn't mean to, it's just this is something I feel strongly about. Please take this as a genuine apology for any wrong assumptions I have made, or if I have come across too strongly.

I'm sorry to hear about your shih tzu - that must have been awful for you. I must admit I forgot to include other reasons for dogs becoming aggressive and obviously you are right - health can be a major factor. A dog that is in pain, easily startled (e.g. caused by poor hearing or eyesight) may well become a danger.

I'm glad to hear that just because you don't like pit doesn't mean you want them killed. Sorry I jumped to conclusions on that one. It just winds me up because it is the press making similar comments about killer dogs that gives breeds like the pit bull such a bad reputation, and this in turn can lead to the public attacking them or them being banned.

Again, I understand your point about pits being bred to be aggressive - to other dogs - but they have NEVER been bred to be aggressive towards people (except perhaps by a criminal minority). Nor were they ever bred to be unstable. And because so many pits turn out to be excellent family pets, sporting dogs, working dogs and therapy dogs, I think it is a bit of a harsh judgement to assume they are all "criminal".

Oh, and just to add, I totally agree with the point you were originally making. It does seem strange that people will travel for hours and spend a fortune on a pedigree dog or exotic pet, but don't understand doing the same for a guinea pig. I think it reflects how the public at large feels about different animals - the bigger / better (in their view) the animal the more they will do for it.

[Terekins]

These are all very good points. I hope you weren't offended TLP. It's great when discussions can be had in such a calm and respecting way.

[diane]

This is not about pit bulls but I find any breed of dog aggressive when the act like a pack. The last house I moved in the neighbors 4 scnauzers(sp) attacked me when I walked out the door. Those dogs were nice one on one but get them all together you better not turn your back on them. I have seen this in lots of breeds. It is like they are willing to do things that they would not typically do if they have "peer pressure" per se.

[Coopdog]

I do not, and will never trust pit/pit mixes, and I will explain why. Please keep in mind that I am a true dog lover, have worked in several kennels, frequent several dog parks, and have been around many breeds.

I have had personal experience with 3 different pit/pit mixes. The first, belonging to a friend of mine, attacked their greyhound, out of the blue, over food. He latched on to the greyhound's throat and would not let go. The owner was finally able to get him to release, but only after being bitten himself, requiring stitches to his hand. The greyhound recieved massive injuries to his throat but did survive. They no longer own that pit.

The next incident happened on a family camping trip. That same family had a second pit that had always played nicely with our dog and any others that were brought along. But this time, apparently she had "switched on", and she wanted to attack every dog she saw, including ours. She had to be crated the whole time, and it was still nerve wracking to walk past the crate. Then, at the end of the trip, when we went to take the group photo, my husband set the camera up on the car and ran back to get in the picture. The pit broke free and charged him, biting him in the crotch (thank goodness his pants were loose). Mind you, this dog had known us for 2 years.

The last incident occured at a park. Lots of people here allow their dogs off leash at the parks so that they can play. Ther are seldom any problems, just the occasional scuffle, broken up quickly by a few stern words from the owner. But on this day, as my dog ran down an embankment to swim in the stream, he accidentally ran into a pit we couldn't see. This dog instantly pinned mine to the ground and ripped his throat wide open. I honestly thought I was watching my dog be killed, and there wasn't a thing I could do to stop it. He is an old dog, 12 years, and very friendly and social, without an aggressive bone in his body. He did not deserve to die that way.

Somehow the owner was able to get him off. Did I mention that this other dog was actually on a leash? So much for being able to control his dog. My dog did survive, although he required emergency surgery.

The problem with pits is that they don't react like other dogs. They don't give a warning growl or nip. They go for the throat and lock on. And they do attack people as well as other dogs...just ask my husband, or the people in the city where I live who have been injured or killed by them.

I am not saying that all pits should be banned or killed. But I do think that a special licence should be required, and that potential owners should be made to take a class on how to properly handle them. I also feel that they should be muzzled when out in public, as should any dog that has shown agressive tendencies. What people do in their own home is up to them, but please don't put others at risk simply because you love your dog and don't think it could ever happen. It can and does.

[cookie_gal]

Originally Posted by Jennicat

I agree with this 100%. Most people cannot even correctly identify a "pit bull" dog.

Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull

That was quite eye opening to me.

Another thing that annoys me are the urban legends surrounding these dogs. That their brains grow too bit for their heads, and their jaws lock, etc. I wish people would remember when these things were being said about German Shepherds. Growing up with one, my parents were told many times that the dog would snap and lock it's jaws on me and kill me. I'm still waiting.

I got it right! but then I know my dog breeds very well. They are so gorgeous. Urgh! so mad at those idiots.

Just read the other posts, I have to say, now, it is a bit of both, stupid humans picked and bred the 'fighting' characteristics so this was bred into the pit line then worsened with so-called training. The vicious ones should never have been bred from in the first place all those years ago. (hope you get what i mean here!)

[this_lil_piggy]

I'm sorry if I have angered or offended you by my comments, I honestly didn't mean to, it's just this is something I feel strongly about. Please take this as a genuine apology for any wrong assumptions I have made, or if I have come across too strongly.

Not offended or angered at all. This is what the kitchen is for, to debate more sensitive topics. I simply wanted to clarify my purpose for the original comment, and further explain my feelings in regards to the topic.


It may be too, that geographical location has some bearing on the view of pits. I personally don't know of anyone that owns or has owned pits for the simple purpose of a family pet. I have never been exposed to them in that respect. I have heard of drug dealers in our area who keep pits, and I can pretty safely assume their purpose for having them. I am friends with some of the law enforcement in our area and there have been several (pits) who have had to be killed when the cops try to gain access to a drug house. The only person I have known who had a pit for the purpose of a "pet" was my inlaws, and since their main purpose for the dog was also "protection" I was quite uneasy about him being at their house, and allowed to run at large. Owning pits in my area, just isn't common.

I will say the only two dogs that I have been charged by was a Rottweiler, and a St Bernard. If either of those particular animals had gotten to me before I got to a safe place from them, I more than likely would have suffered pretty significant injuries. The rottweiler had been raised by a family member and had always been around me. Not 6 months before he turned on me, he had crawled his large self into my lap and was licking my face. This particular day I don't know if I had the scent of another dog on me, or if he didn't like the fact that I was holding my 2 yr old son, but something triggered him to snap even though I was no where near him (standing across the yard from him). He cleared a 6' fence and charged me, ignoring his owners commands. I threw myself onto the ground on top of my son, and the owner threw herself on top of me while the other owner managed to grab the dog. The St Bernard was my neighbors when I was a teen, and I had always lived next door to the dog and been around him. One day he decided to come after me, broke a huge chain, and chased me down a hill. I jumped into a car, and the dog rammed into the side leaving a huge dent on the door.
The only dog that has ever injured me was a dacshund! I was a kid and pulled the dogs tail.... He turned and and grabbed whatever was convenient, which happened to be my face--ripping my forehead and cheek open.
Any dog can be dangerous, any dog can turn, and any dog can administer a damaging bite. I am an animal/dog lover, but there are some dogs that I am more leary of than others... aside from Pits...German Sheppards, Chows, Rotties, Dobermans, and St Bernards happen to be others that I am cautious about. All of which I have either had turn on me, or seen them turn on someone else.

I am not saying that all pits should be banned or killed. But I do think that a special licence should be required, and that potential owners should be made to take a class on how to properly handle them. I also feel that they should be muzzled when out in public, as should any dog that has shown agressive tendencies. What people do in their own home is up to them, but please don't put others at risk simply because you love your dog and don't think it could ever happen. It can and does.

Something like this would be a pretty cool way to protect aggressive, and powerful breeds from bans and death, while keeping them out of the hands of people who mis use and mis treat them.
I don't care much for full muzzles preventing an animal from being able to sniff around and such. But wouldn't a device that allows the animal more freedom while limiting their biting ability be a neat idea? Just something to prevent them from opening up and engaging in a full bite, required along side leashes for all breeds and sizes when in a public setting.

[caribear]

CoopDog, I hurt as I look at the picture of your dog. I am sorry to hear of that attack. Poor doggie! Ouch!

[crazywiggy]

I know it's wishful thinking, but if we could just get better animal care / welfare laws in place and properly enforced I think we would see a massive reduction in dog bites. Here's my view...

1) Improve general animal welfare law - similar to that recently brought in in the UK, only even better. Increase penalties to make cruelty/neglect even less appealing. Ban shock collars and chaining (can cause aggression).

2) Bring in compulsory dog owner licences, linked to a theory test. Person wnats a dog - they have to apply for a licence, get sent an information pack, sit a theory test. If they pass they can send off their certificate and a cheque to get a licence. (This should prevent the worst morons from owning dogs, ensure all owners know the basics of dog care etc.) Also make it so anyone found guilty of an animal cruelty offence automatically loses their licence.

3) Make microchipping compulsory - and the database where it is registered should also contain the owners licence info. That way police could do random checks - stop someone on the street, scan their dog, check chip against owner details.

4) Also make it an offence to sell/give etc a dog to anyone without a licence - prevent morons getting dogs in the first place.

5) Crack down on dog fighting!

6) Bring in a breeders licence. Person already has an owners licence and wants to breed. They then apply and get further information - much more detailed, including information on care of the bitch and puppies, general health and genetic disorders, rearing and socialisation of puppies, etc. They then take a more difficult theory test, and if they pass can buy a breeders licence. Make a "code of ethics" compulsory- eg. no breeding before 2 or past 6 years of age, puppies must be reared in the home, etc.

7) Bring in a "breeding dog" licence to run alongside the breeders licence (i.e. licence both the owner and the dog). Make it law that you can't breed a dog under 2 years old. By this time you should have a good idea of the dogs health and temperament. To get a breeding dog licence, the dog should be certified healthy by a vet (including good hip scores etc), have passed a temperament test and have a canine good citizen certificate.

8) Make it compulsory that unless a person has a breeders licence, and their dog a breeding dog licence, the dog must be neutered. They could have say 6 months, from when the dog could legally breed, to when it must be neutered.

9) To be on the safe side, and prevent impulse buying, ban the sale of dogs in pet shops.

10) Make it illegal for dogs to roam (i.e. they must be with their owners when not on their property). Not sure if this is illegal already, but it seems quite common.

If these were brought in it should prevent unhealthy, aggressive, unstable dogs being bred from. It would also prevent backyard breeders, mills and people who know nothing about dogs turning out pups that have been raised badly. It should then ensure that when a puppy goes to a new home it gets a better deal from its new owners.

Hence you cover both the nature and nurture parts of the "dangerous dog" issue, reduce dog attacks, encourage responsible ownership, make it easier to re-locate lost dogs, reduce the number of dogs in shelters/rescue, and improve animal welfare all at the same time!

How simple is that? Pity the people making the rules don't see it that way...

[smartorl]

I'll throw in my two cents worth as well. When I foster, I take in large breeds that many other groups won't take. I think pits are a beautiful, regal, majestic breed of dog. They are very intellegent and very trainable, however, they were bred for a purpose and the same as the shepherd that will herd children regardless of their environment, the genetic predisposition is there. Do I think they should be outlawed and killed, absolutely not? I do however think that there needs to be some restriction on their ownership or at the very least, required obedience and behavioral classes. Around here, every wanna be outlaw owns five, these dogs are not trained, they are a menace and they cause the stigma that is attached to pit bulls. To own a pit or any protection type breed, you have to be aware of what you own, you have to know that there genetics are what they are and be prepared to be the dominant one without question and be prepared to immediately deal with the issues that could arise. If you are going to have one of these dogs and allow him to own the house and think it is nice when he protects you and your house, you may have very tramatic results. These are not poodles or daschunds, they are protectors and will become increasingly aggressive if that side of them is not curbed. Yes, there are many other breeds that bite more people, it is just the jaw power of a pit or a rott is so much more. And like stated above there are usually no "ok, guys I am gonna go for it" they just do. As an owner of these dogs you have to know the signs, you have to know what to curtail in their personalities, they are a very hard dog to place in a permanent home once they reach adulthood no matter how nice and loveable they are. I always worry about what could happen after one gets placed. I would never, ever even foster a pit with someone that hadn't done extensive homework. These guys can live full wonderful lives without harming a fly if they are in the right environment, the hard part is providing consistantly that environment.

Sugar and Spice, I love your dog, he is too cute. I am not sure if he was adopted or purchased as a full blooded pit bull but both myself and another friend who handles pits alot feel that your dog is actually a mastiff cross, most likely bullmastiff. It is very common for mastiff to be bred into pits to increase their size, that is a good thing as far as it really helps to stabilize the temperment. Mastiff's as a whole are not "hot wired" like pits are, they tend to use their appearence to intimidate more than an attack.

[piggly wiggly]

I have a dobermann and a German pinscher ( aswell as 2 min pins). If I walk my doberman people cross the street and pickup ther dogs, push their kids onto lawns to get them out of the way. Meanwhile I am walking her wth my 3 children one of whom is 2yr's old. She is the sweetest dog ever, I know they don't know that, but people make me feel like I am carrying a loaded gun. They can be scared if they must, but they can hold off on the dirty looks and crossing the street and being so rude about it. When I walk my german pinscher we get the same reaction because he looks like a dobe just a little smaller at 20 inches tall . Luckily eventhough my min pins are dobe looking they are very small so dont get the same reaction. I want to make my dogs a sweater that says, if you don't judge a book by it's cover, then don't judge a dog by it's ears. (or breed for that matter)
P.S I just read Smartorl's post, I agree 100%. Would just like to add we had 2 english mastiffs, they are the sweetest most gentle giants in the entire dog world, even though they are huge I don't think they can ever look mean. ( In my opinion)

[_Luck_]

I've heard that pit bulls are in top 5 for temperamant. But that was years ago,can't even remember the source. Just a rumour maybe.
In my opinion there would be much less dog attacks yearly if every owner took their dogs to the vet, trained their dog properly and socialised their dog properly. I'm positive there would be maybe a few full-blown dog attacks a year,maximum 12.
But a huge amount depends on the dog I think, especially genetics but also personality. People think pit bulls and german shepherds and rotties are so vicious,but my friend has a dobermann and and a rottie and they are the sweetest things in the world.
To compare a dobermann,adult,female and probably spayed,and belonging to my friend....and a golden retriever,two years old,male,neutered and mine.
Flo the dobermann stands near the gate when someone approaches.If she knows them she'll stay until they go away quietly.If she doesn't and they come into the house she sets up SUCH a racket,but if she does she jumps up wagging her stubby little tail for cuddles.
And Dylan the 'placid' golden retriever will make us all deaf one day.
We live next to the park and whenever he sees movement he howls his head off and runs around,scratching the floor,headbutting our knees,growling and barking but wagging his tail.If we walk too quickly he barks for about a minute afterwards,for goodness sake.
He's turned on my mom and she had to have stitches.He very nearly had to be put down.He loves people and dogs,but strangers even near the house send him crazy.Sometimes we can't even see them until we dtare really hard out the window,then see something like a kid getting on a swing and dropping their school bag....he's kinda playfully aggressive.

So Sarah's Dobermann Flo is quiet and sweet and cuddley.Dylan is loud,hyper,howling,we rarely get half an hour quiet.
Flo has never tried to hurt anyone,and Dylan is the opposite of a golden retriever...more like a golden chewer
I think it all depends on the dog and genetics pretty much,with about 30% relying on the trainer. But pit bulls for example are so hated in some parts news reports change the breed of a dog attack to a pit bull.It really happens.If a labrador attacked somebody would it get on the news?I seriously doubt it.But maybe that's me.
Sorry for rambling,it's a horrible habit I'm trying to break.Just trying to prove my point by comparing a doby and a retriever...COUGHchewerCOUGH.