Simple Question

[Jennicat]

Originally Posted by CBrewton5

Perhaps that's true, but I'd think that calling Petco 'PetStupid' and Petsmart 'PetNotSoSmart' is just a little bit defaming, and that's something that some people on this board have done on a regular basis. Just because it's technically not 'libel' doesn't make it any less wrong so the point is still in tact. I think you knew that though and just wanted to point that particular misuse of the word to deflect the fact that she made an actually good argument, commonly referred to as 'splitting hairs'.

Yes and no. Libel law in the US is extremely tricky because of the first amendment right to free speech. In US court, to prove "libel", you have to prove not only that a defamatory statement was made, but you also have to prove "actual malice", or intent to falsify. Therefore people's opinions of stores can't really be defined as libel, unless they're purposefully lying about their opinion of the store.

Then you get into the complicated matter of defense against libel charges. A person is considered innocent of libel in many cases, but specifically in the matter of opinion. So no, it's not the same thing. It's an opinion. I don't think any sane person would think that someone calling a store "stupid" was anything other than opinion.

I'm also curious as to why you think it's wrong to state your opinion?

[PiggieMamaKelly]

I think calling PetSmart "Petstupid" is a gracious compliment compared to what they ought to be called for the way they treat animals.

[Slave to the Wheek]

Hmm. Wrong? We are talking about right and wrong?

One might question what their priorities are when they defend corporate giants who make billions off the backs of our tiny little cavies. Who purposely lie and mislead the public as a standard business practice? They will tell you that they are want you to "adopt" your animals. Then they put their "policy" on opting to adopt right onto the little glass boxes that PURPOSELY mislead the public to THINK they are "adopting" a guinea pig. Until you ASK who you are adopting them from. Then they mumble something about how someone dumped it off blah blah.. I've had it happen to me on 3 separate occasions. Then if you push it farther and tell them they are lying, and that those guinea pigs are for SALE and are NOT adoptions they go...and I quote..."Oh THOSE guinea pigs..Oh I was talking about the other uhhhhhh" and then point over towards the vet office. This happened to me just a few days ago at one of these "responsible" corporate giants.

If you don't want to support the further mill breeding of animals, then simply ONLY shop at pet supply stores that do not sell animals of any kind.

You know, even fish, bird and reptile people will not purchase their fish from pet stores as a rule, because of the condition of the fish these environments breed. Why do guinea pig people constantly feel the need to excuse these companies of their responsibility?

Pet Food Express is one of the few truly responsible pet store chains in northern California. Here is THEIR policy:
Pet Food Express | Why We Dont Sell Pets

Here's a Canadian store that shares the philosophy:
Pet Planet - ETHICS MATTER

It's places like these that DESERVE our money. They put their money where their mouth is, they carry Oxbow products as well. They GET it. Why should I run over to a lousy chain that is corporate stupid in every sense of the word. Why should I continue to support a huge corporate environment that's making billions on the backs of our sweet little cavies, yet CLAIM they are "rescue friendly"

Still not getting why pet stores are not the place for animals? You can take the word "Puppy" and interchange it with guinea pig on pretty much every page on the links below, as the pet store industry does the same thing with all it's animals, and in every country.

Here's a very graphic video with a horrifying story dated Nov. 2006 where they went undercover in Los Angeles. If it's this bad in "liberal" southern California, can you imagine other parts of the country? If people will do this to dogs, cats, birds, reptiles, mice and rats, do you think guinea pigs would get better treatment?
cbs2.com - Selling Sick Pets?

Here is just a handful of pages of just a few of the organizations that share the same viewpoint as GPC. Whether it's puppies, bunnies or guinea pigs - it's the same. This isn't some kind of unusual viewpoint. I find it odd that people will defend the practice of any retail store who sells animals.

Pet Mills: An American Disgrace ~ Pawprints and Purrs, Inc,
HelpingAnimals.com // Help An Animal // Factsheets // Pet Shops: No Bargain for Animals
Animal World USA
Action Alerts - Widespread Animal Suffering Exposed in Retail Pet Stores
Say No To Animals In Pet Shops - Put A Stop To Puppy Farms and Mass Breeding
Actual Interview with an Ex-Pet Store Employee
Petstore Cruelty
Pet Store Scandal
Puppymills
Puppies for sale in pet stores
http://www.imom.org/voices/literature/pm_faq.htm
"Puppy mills" group's pet peeve | PetRescue
Welcome to the Southern Alliance for Animal Welfare
Puppy Mill Legislation, Part I
Choosing a dog from Pet Shops and Pet Stores – STOP! and read this first.
Action for Animals: Search for a Compassionate Pet Store

A pamphlet to hand out:
http://www.critterhaven.net/images/E...cate_no_pm.pdf
Pet Store intervention:
Northern Virginia Reptile Rescue: Conducting a pet store intervention

[sarahnmadison]

I think Slave to the Wheek submitted an excellent post.

I would just like to say that if these big companies did care about the animals they were selling, they would never just give them to anyone - they would have an adoption process.

They would discuss the needs of the pet with the potential new family. They would ensure that they know what it takes to care for the animal. They would make sure they would be doing what is required (in my eyes anyway) for the animal - everything they need for care, proper diet, vet care, and the appropriate home environment. They need to make sure this is not the whimsy of a child wanting a "new" pet that they will be bored within a week or two.

But they do not have an adoption process because they don't care and won't ever care because animals account for such a small percentage of the profits. All animals are is more money to them.

If they cared about animals, they would sell animal appropiate items. Instead, they sell and recommend products that animals should not have - as with the guinea pigs, run around balls, wheels, and bad pet "treats" that are unhealthy and unsafe.

To these companies, they will give the animal to anyone that asks for it no questions asked because it is an end to a means - more money from animal supplies.

[Percy's Mom]

Originally Posted by CBrewton5

Perhaps that's true, but I'd think that calling Petco 'PetStupid' and Petsmart 'PetNotSoSmart' is just a little bit defaming,

Actually, PetStupid also refers to PetSmart since Stupid can be seen as the opposite of Smart. PetNo, using a negative rhyme, would be what is commonly used to refer to PetCo.

[BabyGrl]

Originally Posted by Percy's Mom

Actually, PetStupid also refers to PetSmart since Stupid can be seen as the opposite of Smart. PetNo, using a negative rhyme, would be what is commonly used to refer to PetCo.

You beat me to it

[daftscotslass]

Originally Posted by CBrewton5

Perhaps that's true, but I'd think that calling Petco 'PetStupid' and Petsmart 'PetNotSoSmart' is just a little bit defaming, and that's something that some people on this board have done on a regular basis. Just because it's technically not 'libel' doesn't make it any less wrong so the point is still in tact. I think you knew that though and just wanted to point that particular misuse of the word to deflect the fact that she made an actually good argument, commonly referred to as 'splitting hairs'.

The only point she made was that pet stores charge money and rescues adoption fees so they are effectively the same thing. That is such a ludicrous statement that it doesn't even deserve an explanation of why it is so wrong. Please never, ever make assumptions about what I think or don't think EVER again.

Please tell me the good argument she made - that it's libel to make a pretty safe assumption about the situation? Don't make me laugh!

[CBrewton5]

I'm also curious as to why you think it's wrong to state your opinion?

Stating your opinion and calling names is two different things.

Example:

Opinion: That dress makes you look fat
Ridicule/Name calling: You're a fat pig!

It's perfectly fine to say that you don't like the practices of a particular place, be it Petsmart, Petco or your local library. It just seems punitive to me to go out of your way to call not even call it by the proper name when you're stating your opinion. By the way, I would say the same thing to someone that said they disagreed with the activists here if they called them a derrogatory name (tree hugger, zealot, I'm sure you've heard them all) Regardless of the fact that I disagree with alot of your positions. We teach children not to name call and to use their words when they are displeased about something, I don't think its unreasonable to expect the teens and adults here to do the same.

[janetangel]

Slave to the wheek, I love your post.
And as far as libel or opinion...everyone on this forum is permitted to post their opinion. And yes some opinions that are expressed are against the majority on this site.
If anyone posts on this site something that so many of us feel very strongly about, I am surprised they are shocked they get "slammed" sort of speak. If I were to go to a breeder website and posted what I believed there, I am sure my post would face some hostility with people expressing their opinions. DUH!
I feel and my opinion if a true animal lover feels true compassion about animals they would look at the larger picture, research and learn about the true issues that are out there with all animals, not just guinea pigs, but many many types of animals and one great place to look and have some control over is petshops. After one is educated take it from there how far you want to support the animals out there and how you want to do it. Put you priorities and gear and act upon them. I have done research, I have looked at the big picture. Some of it was more than I cared to see. I commend those who can take bigger steps than I do who volunteer in the shelters, who open their homes to fosters, who have a dream to make a rescue and do it. For so many others that are more in the same boat as me, I have adopted many animals from shelters over my lifetime, I am fostering one right now and continuously sharing my opinions about pet adoptions over breeding or purchasing from a petshop. Could I do more? Of course I could. I only choose not to because I have focused my life on other areas I feel strongly about too. My animals and family are a huge part of my focus and I am in my comfort zone.
I do feel what I have done to support animals and educate others has made a positive impact on my community and world. It may be small compared to the world, but I am proud of what I have done and what I truly feel and believe. Researching about adopting piggies is how I found this forum.

[Susan9608]

I'm really starting to find this discussion tiresome ...

It just seems punitive to me to go out of your way to call not even call it by the proper name when you're stating your opinion.

My question to you is - why do *you* care what the people on here call Petsmart and Petco? How does it affect you? How does it hurt your feelings enough that you feel the need to nitpick everyone about it? It's really, really a stupid, trivial point to make, especially considering the larger issue here.

No one is putting a gun to your head and saying, "CBrewton, you MUST refer to Petsmart and Petco as Petstupid and PetNo forever more OR ELSE!" If you don't like it, then don't do it.

But you really can't force other members here to conform to whatever standard of behavior it is that you desire, especially when that standard inhibits expression IN FAVOR of animals.

CavySpirit sets the tone here, and the moderators uphold that tone. No other members need to be dictating how people should behave. If CavySpirit has no problem with people referring to Petsmart and Petco as PetStupid and PetNo, then so be it.

I'm sorry, but this is not a forum where we all "play nice" with each other, especially not in the face of animal abuse.

[CBrewton5]

My question to you is - why do *you* care what the people on here call Petsmart and Petco? How does it affect you? How does it hurt your feelings enough that you feel the need to nitpick everyone about it? It's really, really a stupid, trivial point to make, especially considering the larger issue here.

In a word: compassion. I dont know anybody who owns or works for Petco, but because I have empathy I can imagine how I'd feel if I WAS one of those people who represented them and saw people ridiculing the place I worked for and represented. I've said this before but some of you are so blinded by your 'love of animals' that you forget that human beings have feelings too. I don't consider taking other people's feelings into consideration stupid or trivial, and the fact that the prevailing attitude around here is the same as yours just reaffirms to me that this is not the place for me. I will use the things that I have learned here to better the life of my guinea pigs and I will keep in touch with those of you who I have on yahoo and MSN, but I will not condone the hostility here by sitting around and watching it anymore.

[Susan9608]

I've said this before but some of you are so blinded by your 'love of animals' that you forget that human beings have feelings too.

Human beings can take care of themselves, thus, protecting them is not my main concern. Besides, if a person lets something a total stranger says over the internet hurt his feelings, then that is his issue and not mine.

Animals are at the total mercy of human beings. So I can't feel compassionate for the people that work at Petsmart and Petco because those individuals are - by their own choice - contributing to the suffering and misery of other living beings.

See, you draw a distinction between human beings and non human animals, always with the presumption that human beings deserve more than non human animals. I don't make that distinction - to me, EVERY animal - human or not - deserves to have his or her own best interests considered above all else.

So if I have to hurt a few humans' feelings in order to save thousands of helpless animals, that's fine with me.

I will use the things that I have learned here to better the life of my guinea pigs and I will keep in touch with those of you who I have on yahoo and MSN, but I will not condone the hostility here by sitting around and watching it anymore.

We have a rule here against flouncing, you know.

[Jennicat]

Originally Posted by CBrewton5

In a word: compassion. I dont know anybody who owns or works for Petco, but because I have empathy I can imagine how I'd feel if I WAS one of those people who represented them and saw people ridiculing the place I worked for and represented. I've said this before but some of you are so blinded by your 'love of animals' that you forget that human beings have feelings too.

Then I say those people need to grow spines. I used to work for Walmart. I certainly didn't cry every time someone criticized the company. I have empathy too. And suggesting that anybody who isn't upset when their workplace is ridiculed doesn't is just ridiculous.

I really don't get why it's so important to you to preserve the feelings of employees of Petsmart and Petco. Why is it? It's not like this forum has a secret hidden agenda against either of these companies. It states plainly on the front page that this group is anti-stores that sell animals. Plain and simple. Easy peasy, 1-2-3. For someone to come onto this site, working for such a pet store, and be upset and appalled that we are against it is just naive. I've visited breeder-oriented websites that talk about the "animal rescue psychos". I certainly wouldn't toddle into there and then start crying when they said those types of things to me. It's common sense. (It apparently ain't that common, though.)

[CavySpirit]

...and the fact that the prevailing attitude around here is the same as yours just reaffirms to me that this is not the place for me.

Based on your pretty consistent arguing with all of the main issues and trying to find any point in a storm (to twist a phrase) to argue, I'd agree with you. Your weak attempts at arguments are definitely getting tiresome.

The entire Petno campaign was wholeheartedly supported and promoted by PETA until they got bought off by Petco. Petco never sued them over libel. Petno and Petstupid have been around for a long, long time and are highly prevalent all over the internet. Terms certainly not invented by me, but highly and richly deserved. Slander and libel have to be untrue. It's been proven again and again and again and again how truly awful those corporations are.

And the prevailing attitude here has been publicly established from DAY ONE of the creation of this forum and site. It's not going to change.

You've posted plenty of good posts among your attempts to set us straight. I wish you well.