Simple Question

[Ruftybear]

Originally Posted by PiggieMom

On the side note of adoption of humans: the homeless children of the world is a totally different battle with very different solutions. Children are not being bred and sold, so we do not have to worry about -not- buying them. So many things need to be done to fight against homelessness, education and economic reform being the tools to be used.

I only wish that was true. The instances of children being sold/born into slavery, and young girls being sold to old men under the guise of arranged marriage, it all too common in some countries.

[jabberwock]

Also baby trafficking from African countries to childless couples in the UK. And although most of us on this forum won't be involved in actually trading in children, many of the clothes or toys we buy will have been produced by child labour in absolutely appalling conditions. This consideration probably takes us slightly off topic, but to me the ethical treatment of animals and the ethical treatment of humans really shouldn't be separate issues.

[Jennicat]

Originally Posted by zippysmom

I can certainly see it's very extreme since there are no oxbow stores near me.

Then why it is extreme? You'll be paying less money for better hay. Unless you just enjoy paying $4 for tiny bags from Petsmart when you could be paying $1 for the same amount of Oxbow when buying bulk.

Originally Posted by CBrewton5

Taking home an animal that you know is sick and then turning around and suing the pet store for selling you a sick animal in my mind is as stupid as that woman who sued McDonald's because of the hot coffee she spilled on herself. That falls within the realm of "Buyer Beware", especially since you got the animal for a mere $5.

Knowing about the case you're referring to would actually help. The woman who sued McDonald's had THIRD degree burns from her coffee. Third degree burns over 16% of her body. I know the coffee in my coffee pot can't give me third degree burns. McDonald's Corp has a policy of keeping their coffee at between 180-190 DEGREES. Water boils at 212. The average home coffee pot brews coffee at around 130. So nearly boiling. They have had numerous third degree burn cases over the past 10 years (approximately 700) because of this, but have decided not to change their corporate standard.

The woman in question also tried to settle with McDonald's for $20,000. To cover her EIGHT DAYS of hospitalization for the third degree burns on 16% of her body. McDonald's refused. So she took them to court to cover the tens of thousands of dollars of medical bills inflicted by this.

[CBrewton5]

OK, bad example I guess. The original judgement for that case according to McFacts abut the McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit this was only $1.3 million, with the judge lowering it to $480k. Still though you must acknowledge this country as a whole is WAY too 'lawsuit-happy', suing for the consequences that, with a little bit of logical reasoning, could have been prevented. If the pet store had represented the animal as healthy, sold him/her for full price and the whole bit, then yeah I'd at least submit the bills to them for collection. In this case the court costs for going to small claims court would far exceed the basic treatment for a URI of one animal. If she'd purchased 2-4, maybe. If the problems were multiple and more severe than a URI that can be treated with 7-10 days of an antibiotic, maybe.

I'm curious, how old is the piggie in question? How long had s/he been at the pet store? If they sold it for $5 they could not have made a profit. We all know what it costs to feed a guinea pig for just one week, even without veggies, and feeding cut rate pellets like pet stores do. If the pet store has agreed to quit selling guinea pigs, and obviously did not make a profit from the sale of *this* guinea pig, then I think alot of people are just jumping on the 'pet stores are evil and should be destroyed' bandwagon without looking at the good that came from THIS SITUATION. A guinea pig's life has been saved, and that store is no longer selling guinea pigs at all. That goes down as a victory for the good guys, IMHO.

[Percy's Mom]

Originally Posted by CBrewton5

A guinea pig's life has been saved, and that store is no longer selling guinea pigs at all. That goes down as a victory for the good guys, IMHO.

For a week or a month or however long it takes for the store to realize that "Hey! Those guinea pigs don't take up as much space as the puppies we're STILL selling. Let's sell those again!" Regardless of whether or not they ever sell guinea pigs again, that $5 went towards an animal breeder. So now, it's dogs and reptiles instead of guinea pigs. It's still not right.

And actually, they probably did make a profit off of that guinea pig. They either would have had to pay a vet to euthanize it, or they would have had to eventually have paid disposal fees if they took it in the back and did it themselves. Instead they got $5 and didn't have to do anything.

[exsNohs]

then I think alot of people are just jumping on the 'pet stores are evil and should be destroyed' bandwagon without looking at the good that came from THIS SITUATION.

Yeah, I agree.. I've already tried getting that across. But most of the people disagreeing are too blinded and just don't wanna even TRY to see the LITTLE good in these kinds of situations. I know it might've helped the store out a bit, but still... Ecsecially now, when its all said and done and over with. She already has the guinea pig, yet they just can't get over the fact that it was five whole dollors.. they need to think, well.. nothing can be changed now.. at least that five dollors saved an animal and wasn't just to buy food or toys and accersories.. and it doesn't sound like she'll be shopping there to continue supporting them.

[Slave to the Wheek]

It's hard for me to believe that hay is only at Petstupid, when even Target carries it. In fact, the Target version of Kaytee looks quite good too. They have a custom bedding that is pretty good too. I have decided I like it better even than Carefresh. (there's a pic of it in my "haybox" gallery) It's kind of lightweight but it seems to keep odor down better. Right now I"m mixing it with Carefresh and liking the results.

If there are Target stores that sell pets, then I wouldn't go to those Targets. In my mind, if you shop at the ones that don't sell pets, you can make them see that they make more money NOT selling pets than selling so I would support a corporation that has stores that don't sell pets at all. I even know of a Walmart that couldn't make money selling fish, so they just stopped. THey couldn't a

If I walk into a Petco or Petstupid then I inevitably get into an argument with an employee who tries to tell me that their pigs are for "adoption"..and I have to get onto my soapbox and lecture them that they are lying and they are selling them not adopting them. Which usually puts a look of shock on their face..like the emperor with no clothes. They are so drilled with coroporate schlock that they don't like it when the truth is brought up. Plus they can't handle the intensity of that statement. Yep. I try to stay away from them because inevitably I wonder over to look at the pigs and then the stress starts kicking in and I start boiling. I'm not one who can hold my tongue when I"m passionate about something... bet none of you ever figured THAT out eh? Hehe.

Also, all it takes is a couple of phone calls around town to find a store that doesn't support the selling of animals. THAT is also supply and demand.

I started calling stores in town and was amazed at how many mom-pop pet supply stores in town are ANTI pet selling and gave me lecture when I asked if they sold animals, like guinea pigs. It was so refreshing. The store nearest me was less than 10 miles away and were more than happy to order all kinds of special things I wanted that they didn't carry. They just called their supplier and then got it in the next week.

ANY store that sells pellets SHOULD be selling hay.

San Diego is a horse town isn't it? Feed stores are great places to get timothy or grass hay cheap. They usually break down a bale and sell flakes for 2 bucks. Half our outside of San Diego sounds like Escondido. I spent a summer there once about 20 years ago, and that was the horsiest town I've even been too.

So, you can support stores that do the RIGHT thing, or you can support stores that do the WRONG thing. Every dollar to buy hay from store that sells pets could be spent to support a store that deserves it.

Calling me extreme because I'm an educated consumer?
Okay. If you say so.

Either way, that's supply and demand too.

[jthocker]

San diego is not a horse town. You should try coming back down here again and see.

And were not in Escondido. Thats for sure.

[daftscotslass]

Originally Posted by exsNohs

Yeah, I agree.. I've already tried getting that across. But most of the people disagreeing are too blinded and just don't wanna even TRY to see the LITTLE good in these kinds of situations. I know it might've helped the store out a bit, but still... Ecsecially now, when its all said and done and over with. She already has the guinea pig, yet they just can't get over the fact that it was five whole dollors.. they need to think, well.. nothing can be changed now.. at least that five dollors saved an animal and wasn't just to buy food or toys and accersories.. and it doesn't sound like she'll be shopping there to continue supporting them.

Totally missing the point. I'm sure this isn't the only situation where something like this happens, effectively holding the poor animal to ransom. Where do we draw the line at it being acceptable to give the pet store the money? So it's only five dollars - great. Five dollars enough to contribute towards buying some puppy mill puppies. Five dollars somewhere else to buy some more piggies to replace the ones sold. If the buck doesn't stop here, where DOES it stop?

Here's a question for you. You say "the people disagreeing are so blinded". I'm blinded by the fact that thousands of animals are euthanised each day because someone bought their pet from a shop when they could have saved one from death row. I'm blinded by the number of pigs I helped bathe and clean out that were dumped because pet stores will sell to anyone and everyone, usually those who lose interest a few weeks down the line. Look in their little eyes and tell them they can't have a home because someone had their heart set on paying for a pig from a store because it was the most convenient thing to do. Perhaps then you will change your opinion.

[Susan9608]

But most of the people disagreeing are too blinded and just don't wanna even TRY to see the LITTLE good in these kinds of situations.

Interesting. In this situation, I would say that you (the collective you agreeing with this position that purchasing the guinea pig from that store was okay) are the blinded one. You all seem so terribly determined to prove that this ONE, LITTLE bit of good for this ONE animal is the most important point here, when in fact, this ONE LITTLE bit of good is undermining the GREATER good for MANY animals.

Sure, this ONE pig was saved from either a death by euthanasia or death by neglect. That's wonderful for that ONE pig. But what about the MANY other animals this pet store will continue to breed, sell, and neglect? Is this ONE pig's life worth the lives of the MANY that will follow?

Sometimes individual sacrifices have to be made for the GREATER GOOD of ALL animals. It's unfortunate for the individuals that have to suffer in the process, but I am willing to let one guinea pig suffer if it means that MANY other animals won't have to. It's never pleasant to be in the position of leaving an animal behind to a sad fate, but sometimes, in order to work towards the GREATER GOOD for all animals, it's the best thing to do.

I am very blinded by the daily suffering of thousands of animals being bred to death and being treated as merchandise, so I'm sorry, but I can't see much to celebrate about 1 purchase that helps perpetuate that cycle.

[jthocker]

I dont get this site. You will all say stuff bad about breeders and petstores but noone every says anything about a protest, or some other organized event to educate the people out there that MAY not have means to educate themselves. (i.e. no internet, not getting the pet for themselves, ect...). How do you reach them?

[daftscotslass]

Originally Posted by jthocker

I dont get this site. You will all say stuff bad about breeders and petstores but noone every says anything about a protest, or some other organized event to educate the people out there that MAY not have means to educate themselves. (i.e. no internet, not getting the pet for themselves, ect...). How do you reach them?

If you "don't get" it, read around. Members (including the owner of this site) have travelled the country to find homes for rescued pigs. Members have lobbied senators/parliament/government and some even had legislation passed. Many members volunteer for local rescues and humane societies. Many members are active members of PETA. Many spend all their free time promoting their rescues and the cause. Some have spent time (myself included) trying to get politicians involved in animal welfare cases, sometimes with success (helped get one involved in trying to save our local animal welfare centre) and sometimes without (the SSPCA closed it anyway).

[exsNohs]

Interesting. In this situation, I would say that you (the collective you agreeing with this position that purchasing the guinea pig from that store was okay) are the blinded one. You all seem so terribly determined to prove that this ONE, LITTLE bit of good for this ONE animal is the most important point here, when in fact, this ONE LITTLE bit of good is undermining the GREATER good for MANY animals.

Sure, this ONE pig was saved from either a death by euthanasia or death by neglect. That's wonderful for that ONE pig. But what about the MANY other animals this pet store will continue to breed, sell, and neglect? Is this ONE pig's life worth the lives of the MANY that will follow?

Sometimes individual sacrifices have to be made for the GREATER GOOD of ALL animals. It's unfortunate for the individuals that have to suffer in the process, but I am willing to let one guinea pig suffer if it means that MANY other animals won't have to. It's never pleasant to be in the position of leaving an animal behind to a sad fate, but sometimes, in order to work towards the GREATER GOOD for all animals, it's the best thing to do.

I am very blinded by the daily suffering of thousands of animals being bred to death and being treated as merchandise, so I'm sorry, but I can't see much to celebrate about 1 purchase that helps perpetuate that cycle.

Totally missing the point. I'm sure this isn't the only situation where something like this happens, effectively holding the poor animal to ransom. Where do we draw the line at it being acceptable to give the pet store the money? So it's only five dollars - great. Five dollars enough to contribute towards buying some puppy mill puppies. Five dollars somewhere else to buy some more piggies to replace the ones sold. If the buck doesn't stop here, where DOES it stop?

Here's a question for you. You say "the people disagreeing are so blinded". I'm blinded by the fact that thousands of animals are euthanised each day because someone bought their pet from a shop when they could have saved one from death row. I'm blinded by the number of pigs I helped bathe and clean out that were dumped because pet stores will sell to anyone and everyone, usually those who lose interest a few weeks down the line. Look in their little eyes and tell them they can't have a home because someone had their heart set on paying for a pig from a store because it was the most convenient thing to do. Perhaps then you will change your opinion.

You're NOT getting the POINT. What happened can not be UNDONE. She's not god. And i think she can't go there asking for her money back.. they wouldn't give it to her. And i belive she said she wasn't going there to support them anymore.. so whats the point of arguing [[mostly to yourself]] about it?? She ISNT going back there anymore!!!!! So exactly what are you trying to say?? Or what do you want her to do?? Alot of people on this site have shopped at petstores once in there lifetimes, i'm sure, and didn't know the whole story about them. Then, when they find out how bad they are, like hearing things from people on this site, they STOP going there. So, what, you're going to hold it against them forever?? What's the point?? Instead of thinking "well, they didn't know and at least now that they do, they stopped instead of continuing to support them"?? She might've known about the petsstores though, but she might not have thought about every little aspect until she got more responses from people on this site and by then it was too late. At least now she will for next time.

[daftscotslass]

Originally Posted by exsNohs

You're NOT getting the POINT. What happened can not be UNDONE. She's not god. And i think she can't go there asking for her money back.. they wouldn't give it to her. And i belive she said she wasn't going there to support them anymore.. so whats the point of arguing [[mostly to yourself]] about it?? She ISNT going back there anymore!!!!! So exactly what are you trying to say?? Or what do you want her to do?? Alot of people on this site have shopped at petstores once in there lifetimes, i'm sure, and didn't know the whole story about them. Then, when they find out how bad they are, like hearing things from people on this site, they STOP going there. So, what, you're going to hold it against them forever?? What's the point?? Instead of thinking "well, they didn't know and at least now that they do, they stopped instead of continuing to support them"?? She might've known about the petsstores though, but she might not have thought about every little aspect until she got more responses from people on this site and by then it was too late. At least now she will for next time.

This person came here for advice and got it. Apart from your post they were advised NOT to do it as it involved supporting a pet store by giving them money. They knew better, they did it anyway. THAT is the point that you keep drifting over.