Breeding tangent from cage safety thread

[rabbitsncavyluv]

Yes, but aren't those breeders breeding them? Where are those pigs' babies going? Pet stores? Shelters? Snake food? Other backyard breeders? Do you microchip all the pigs? How do you know where they end up? And breeders are not passing them along when they are no longer breedable?

That futon incident sounds tragic, but I don't see how it can be used as a con for floor time. GPs should get out of cage time, esp. if they are not in C&Cs. You pig proof and watch over them. Shouldn't that be the owner's fault or the futon manufacturer? It sounds more like a freak accident.

[daftscotslass]

So at an average of 2-4 babies per litter (so let's say 3 on average), multiplying that by 30 litters per year would give you up to 90 young. If even half of those are used in breeding the following year and each result in an average of 3 per litter, that's another 135 right there each time they are bred. So, like the above post states, do you really have control of what the offspring are being used for and where their offspring are going? Or does it not matter because once they are sold to someone else it is out of your hands?

With regards to the death of one guinea pig due to being killed by a futon...

I find it interesting that you draw a line between expected and unexpected deaths. I find both equally tragic. I notice you don't appear to consider your pigs pets...

Someone's beloved pet dying is totally different, they have a different attachment to their pet than I do to my pigs.

What do you consider them then, a production line? A money maker? A passtime? Does that make them more disposable than if they were a "pet"? Do you not consider it a con to breeding that some will die in the "process" of creating the perfect, healthy cavy?

[Myspoiltpiggies]

I've always been told on this forum that piggies can get their heads stuck in a toilet roll... well isn't a toilet roll roughly the same size as a hole in the grid??

[daftscotslass]

The diameter of the spaces in the grids in my cage is 40mm. The diameter of your standard toilet roll is 50mm.

[pamziaw]

My silly pigs have had their heads stuck in both toilet rolls and grids, toilet rolls are by far the easier option if you have to save a silly pig.

[VoodooJoint]

Originally Posted by MrsHauler

this is about animals that died needlessly.

Unlike the deaths that have resulted from breeding. Now, remind me, just why is it needful to breed?

Originally Posted by MrsHauler

What do my cages have to do with anything? THey are not what most people want as they are condos.

Condos? I've seen pictures of your cages. They remind me more of inner city public houseing, or "the projects" as they are commonly called.

As far as what is or isn't quality housing is not somehting I feel you have any credance to comment on.

Originally Posted by MrsHauler

Regarding the two deaths from breeding, yes but these were deaths that I had emotionally prepared myself for... Someone's beloved pet dying is totally different, they have a different attachment to their pet than I do to my pigs.

Could that be because you view your animals as possessions to bolster your ego? Face the facts, you do not have feelings for your animals as "pet owners" do yet you dare to criticize the improved ways we care for them.

Originally Posted by MrsHauler

I love my pigs and I want the best for them,

People that truley love their pets want them to be happy and well cared for. They keep their GPs in the home with them where they can readily enjoy their company and insure their well-being. They provide them with large living areas and plenty of toys to keep them stimulated.

Your "love" seems only to go so far as to give them a small cage in a shed and food. But you already stated that you do not view your GPs in the same way as pet owners do.

Originally Posted by MrsHauler

I am trying to breed healthier pigs, none of my animals

I must have missed on your caviary site where you have all the health certificates for your animals. I also missed where you state about the reasons you bred two animals together is because they are genetically sound and healthy animals. I do see a lot of comments about their coloring and spots though. Does perfect spotting on a dalmation mean it is a healthy animal?

Originally Posted by MrsHauler

about me "flooding" the market around me with pigs from my 30 litters (give or take) in a year, most of my animals go to other breeders, very few are sold to pet owners.

So, if you really are breeding for healthier animals then how is selling to other breeders helping? Lets assume you would only sell to breeders like yourself. Ones that would only sell to other breeders and rarely to pet homes.

If the responsible, health oriented breeders are keeping all of the healthy GPs to thenselves and the rest of us only have access to animals from irresponsible breeders. (You know the breeders that don't breed for health and supply pet shops) then how is what you are doing helping the animals?

Perhaps your time could be better spent in education instead of showing. After all, a healthy animal may not have perfect spots or markings and may not do well on the show table. Maybe if instead of going to a cavy show you started to get irresponsible breeders shut down and pet shops to stop carrying live animals your goal to create healthier animals would work as people would have to turn to responsible breeders for their pets.

If you put an end to sick and genetically unsound animals being bred and if this caused the animal overpopulation problem to reduce then you would be a hero! These are things that would help put rescuers out of "business" and we would all start singing the praises of responsible breeders instead of fighting you.

I do have one more problem though. You stated

Originally Posted by MrsHauler

from my 30 litters (give or take) in a year,

Wow, that's a lot. Mindboggling almost.

Lets estimate that each of your sows has 2 litters a year. That seems reasonable to me, ~72 days of gestation and 2 months between pregnancies implies that 2 is a reasonable number (by breeder standards). I know that you sometimes backbreed your sows but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't do that more then once to them.

To get those 30 litters a year that would mean that you have at least 15 sows. I will have to assume that in order to keep genetic diversity you have at least 5 boars. That's at least 20 Gps already in your shed.

Considering that GPs average 3-4 pups per litter that means that your animals give birth to 105 babies a year. WOW! Can that be right? Let's figure this out because there must be a mistake in my math. I'm going to simplify this though.

On the first litter your 15 sows each have 3 young = 45
On the second litter the 15 sows have 4 young = 60

30 litters = 105 young

On top of that you say you rarely have any die. 2 in 4 years? I can't really take any numbers off for that from the grand total. But we will take 1 off making your total 104 babies

If you only supply to breeders then you must know an awful lot of breeders.

Lets generously say you keep 50% of the animals you breed. That leaves 52 babies to be sold to breeders and makes your grand total of animals including your original sows and boars 72 (that's a lot of animals)

If each breeder you know buys an average of 2 GPs from you (that's an average I estimated from the number of animals people have been coming home from breeders with on the forums) then that means you know 26 breeders. Who are going to keep breeding these animals. The numbers go up and up.

Meanwhile, with you, time has passed, 6 years to be exact (the average lifespan of a GP).

Since you already said you mostly sell to breeders and rarely pet homes and after a few years your GPs are no longer showable or breedable and breeders won't want to buy them and you have to happily house them until their natural deaths. that means in 6 years.

15 original sows
+
5 original boars
+
312 = 52 young a year that you keep of the total of 104 bred for 6 years
+
-3 sows dying of birth complications (2 sows died in 4 years right?)
+
-3 pups dying (2 pups in 4 years right again?)

That gives you a grand total of 326 cavies in your caviary.

Now you did say that rarely do you sell to pet homes. I consider 5% fair. It's not rare but it's not huge either. If you sold or gave away 5% of your animals that then leaves you with a total of 310 (I had to round up a little as I can't count .7 of a GP. We'll call it a runt)

How do you house 310 animals? You caviary does not look big enough for that.

In fact your caviary site says you have about 40 animals That means 270 animals have gone missing! Holy crap! Did you realize you are missing 270 Guinea Pigs? Aren't you worried? Everyone start looking under the furniture for escaped GPs (beware of the killer futons though). MrsHauler is missing 270 GPs! Call out the secret service, call out the military, call out Ace Ventura Pet Detective!

Or we can just call Bull$#!^ ?

[fourbwabbys]

Oh VJ, you have me rolling on the floor here. I really want to see Amanda get herself out of this one.

[suzilovespiggie]

I loved it, VJ. I was thinking. If MrsHauler, was so upset, as to 2 piggies dying, 1. by grids and 2. by a futon would it not be reasonable for her to get just as upset by loosing 2-4 by breeding? Would it be logical then to stop breeding? The same amount of piggies have died so why not the same anger and solutions.
1 piggie killed in a grid= no more C&C cages
1 piggie killed by futon during floor time= no more floor time
2-4 piggies killed in breeding= no more breeding
I may be simple but it makes sense to me.

[salana]

Originally Posted by VoodooJoint

People that truley love their pets want them to be happy and well cared for.

Hell, they want them to be alive!

[daftscotslass]

Originally Posted by suzilovespiggie

I loved it, VJ. I was thinking. If MrsHauler, was so upset, as to 2 piggies dying, 1. by grids and 2. by a futon would it not be reasonable for her to get just as upset by loosing 2-4 by breeding? Would it be logical then to stop breeding? The same amount of piggies have died so why not the same anger and solutions.
1 piggie killed in a grid= no more C&C cages
1 piggie killed by futon during floor time= no more floor time
2-4 piggies killed in breeding= no more breeding
I may be simple but it makes sense to me.

But if you read the posts, apparently the futon/C&C cage deaths were unexpected, hence the reasons to stop. Pigs are expected to die in the breeding process which apparently makes it O.K.

I just don't see the logic either.

[jdomans]

I don't have a futon in my kitchen so that is where we have floortime. Also if you only have a few pigs many people use their bathrooms or halls. A bathroom is smaller than my cage but for say 2 or 3 pigs, it is a new area for exploration and fun.
Let's see, I have 10 pigs, 8 are adults and I have yet to see a head stuck in a grid and believe me, when Doolittle was waiting his 3 weeks after being neutered, he and the girls were living at the grid wall!

[fourbwabbys]

Paraphrased from her own website:

I have a caviary of about 40 animals

What ever happened to the 30 litters?

Spice is ready to deliver at any time.

She finally gave birth while I was camping, she had a 7 babies! Sadly three were stilborn they were chocolates. Here are pictures of her babies! They are so cute, there is one female and three males, I will be selling the dalmatian boars, I am still trying to decide if I should sell or keep the chocolate boar and the dalmatian sow.

This picture is of a prolapse before labour and it is NOT normal. This picture was taken just before going to the vet, when she was not in any obvious distress (you would never have known there was something wrong with her until you picked her up). The vet was able to fix the prolapse. Two weeks later she went into labour and it reoccured much more severely. She was quickly taken to the vet, but the mother died despite being spayed and medications. Sadly all of the babies died too. A prolapsed uterus after birth would look similar, although it would probably be much darker and larger.

You said you only had 2 die, but right here 3 were born stillborn, plus another sow and her babies. And knowing she was carrying so much and due so soon, why go camping? You could have been responsible and there to help instead of out enjoying yourself camping.

Condos? I've seen pictures of your cages. They remind me more of inner city public houseing, or "the projects" as they are commonly called.

*cringe* They're on her website, too. They look like 1x2 chicken coops stacked on top of eachother.


Poor pigs.

[Susan9608]

What I really don't understand is what motivates MrsHauler to keep pigs in the first place. She has already stated here that she doesn't feel that they are her beloved pets, so that eliminates one possible motivator. She has stated elsewhere that there is not much money to be made in cavies, so that eliminates another motivator.

Why would anyone go to all the trouble to care for these animals properly ... oh wait, I get it.

[fourbwabbys]

The only reason I can think of is having the power over other living things. Or getting "merit points" from showing an animal that hates the showing atmosphere. She goes a little power happy.