I got a new guinea pig!

[Susan9608]

I still think PetSmart deserves some credit for taking steps in the right direction.

Petsmart gets NO credit for anything on *this* forum until they stop selling animals in their stores. They can do all the cat adoptions and dog adoptions in the world; they can sell the greatest animal supplies ever; they can keep their small animals in the ultimate small animal set up; hell, the could be the world's greatest experts on small animals, for all I care. They still suck.

The bottom line is that they still SELL animals as merchandise. Period. They get no credit or praise or anything else that's good until that practice stops.

Look at it however you want - as the glass is half full or through rose colored glasses. I don't care. But you don't get to praise them *here* on this forum.

[GadgetGirl]

Originally Posted by Coopdog

I still think PetSmart deserves some credit for taking steps in the right direction. More and more of them are doing adoptions, which is definately a good thing. As the saying goes: Rome wasn't built in a day.

PetSmart SUCKS! I can't give them any credit for anything. My baby died because I listened to them. She had a good life in the short time I had her but if they never sold her, she might have had a chance at a longer happy life as opposed to the happy short one.

I hope you don't truly believe what you say. You don't ever know what you're going to get when you get an animal but when you get one from a shelter, you do know that it has been truly taken care of with the love it deserves. PetSmart doesn't love the animals, they love the profits and life is much more important than the bottom line. This is my opinion only but I wish to suggest that you try to see what everyone is saying and rethink your ideas about PetSmart.

GadgetGirl the piggie lover

[Coopdog]

But you don't get to praise them *here* on this forum.

Duly noted. It doesn't change my viewpoint, however. My sincere hope is that the trend increases and catches on with other retailers until it becomes the accepted policy, and not the excepted one. But that takes time. I'm just glad to see it beginning, and I find it encouraging.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject.

[C&K]

My sincere hope is that the trend increases and catches on with other retailers until it becomes the accepted policy, and not the excepted one. But that takes time. I'm just glad to see it beginning, and I find it encouraging.

Sorry if you answered this, but does this store sell any small animals or are they all adoptions from shelters?

[CaRMeLLa BaBy]

Originally Posted by C&K

Sorry if you answered this, but does this store sell any small animals or are they all adoptions from shelters?

there is a petsmart/lypopfarm in brockport new york it is specificly an adoption so selling as merchandise

[spoonyspork]

Yes, Coopdog said several times that this particular store does adoptions only - dogs, cats, small animals, and horses - and doesn't sell *any* of their animals. Personally, I do think it's wonderful that a petstore has moved to adoptions *only*. Maybe this is a 'baby step' that could ultimately lead to the whole chain going adoption only. So long as it doesn't turn into a 'we take your unwanted pets and sell them for our own profit to the same ignorant people who would have come in and bought them if we'd gotten them from a mill anyway!', and they actually follow the same application process a shelter would, I would be quite impressed.

I donno. The cynic in me says 'BS', but the optimist in me says 'maybe!'. *shrug* Maybe more letters should be written encouriging the adoption only thing - not just dogs and/or cats, but *everything*, like that one store has been doing.

[Coopdog]

To clarify: The animals are not "sold". They are adopted out by the shelter staff, and the same screening is carried out. That means they are vet checked and treated for any illnesses/infestations by the shelter vet, and dogs/cats are neutered before the adoption. Potential owners are screened for landlord approval, family situation, etc. They also receive a coupon for a free vet check with any of several local vets after adoption.

[CaRMeLLa BaBy]

dontchya luuuv my 's? well i do just to let you know me and ty'spiggs (yes we are working on this together) think your website is effing gay and faggish you hate people like me n ty for wanting to save ALL GUINEA PIGS even pet store piggs which i LOVVEEE we love gp's just as much as the rest of you but we dont dedicate our ENTIRE lives to them there is more to this world than them and we love them to death but we also have lives! YOU GUYS DONT loveee me n ty


i tried using ALL THE SMILEYS to piss you off but it wouldnt let me

[Ly&Pigs]

Well, thanks. What I have to say to you is GOOD-BYE.

This thread is closed but I am leaving it up as an example to other newbies on what they should NOT do unless they want to join you in BANland.

[CavySpirit]

Actually, I'm moving this flounce post to the end of her diatribe on her pet store purchase. It seems more fitting and appropriate as a conclusion to her argument here rather than standing alone.

[CavySpirit]

There are some really EXCELLENT and well-written responses to many of the common problems with pet overpopulation in this thread. Also, presented is the typical short-sighted view of buying animals in pet stores. Of course, we also have the teen version of sticking her tongue out at us because she is not equipped to handle the issues or debate. But the thread is basically very, very good on the points, so I'm making it a sticky.

[cavygma]

Carmella Baby, sorry about the previous posts!! I to had a similar situation but princess was placed with the boys. You should be able to see & feel the pups in another week maybe a week & half. Just keep an eye on her, and keep her comfortable. Another way is if she is laying on her side and not on all fours (atleast thats what Princess has done). She will need more vegs than a non pregant sow. Hope that this helps.

PS: disregard others who shun you for previous actions. You were only thinking of the guinea pig.

[Susan9608]

Carmella Baby has been banned.

Wheyza, you need to get better acquainted with the ideals and philosophies of this forum before you start posting, particularly in the Kitchen.

disregard others who shun you for previous actions. You were only thinking of the guinea pig.

Statements like these are not acceptable here. We do not condone people's pet store purchases. Period.

[jackrungh]

I agree with the logical equation of mass breeder plus pet store equals overpopulation, that reality is easy to comprehend, impossible to deny, and unfortunate. However in spite of the fact that I do not buy from stores that sell animals any longer, I take exception to this hard line position damning pet stores. They indeed are motivated by profit (not something I consider an inherent evil), but screaming at them and acting like the morons at PETA is really not a constructive way to instigate change. Some of the most intelligent posts in this thread have all centered on the adoption through store issue, and in supporting stores that are transitioning towards those sorts of practices.

Lets be real about something. When does someone who has never owned a guinea pig, and perhaps never owned a pet say to themselves, "Ah yes, I feel like I would like a guinea pig in my life. Let me consult the nearest Cavy rescue center." The answer is never.

A non-owner doesnt know there is an issue with Cavys, doesnt know they are called "Cavys", and doesnt know about the breeding mills and overpopulation. People go to pet stores, and they check out the animals and they make that purchase, whether it be an impulse-buy or not. That is how I got my first cavy, but once I had her, and wanted to be the best owner I could possibly be for her, and read these forums and sites and books on caregiving, I became knowledgable about this problem and its ramifications. Once pet store customers do this (And I sincerely hope they all invest as much thought and research into their pet as the users of this forum do.), they effectively become one of the "good guys." They no longer buy from pet stores and contact guinea pig rescues, and they buy online more cheaply and stop funding chains that sell animals.

The important thing to realize is that the demand will always be there. People will always want to go somewhere and get a pet, with the key selling point being they want to go somewhere where pets are and get a face to face with potential pets, in order that they might get an idea of what they want. If you want proof of this go to petsmart on saturday when they exhibit dogs for adoption. Not buying from pet stores who sell animals might help in some miniscule way, but the real solution is to have the same stores (read: the same demand) be purchasing pets that are not farmed. Having a rescue fuel the demand of your local Petsmart is ideal, because pigs on "death row" are given homes, breeders are made obsolete, and the end consumer is none-the-wiser.

What I am objecting to is this rigid mentality that they are evil, we are good, and no cooperation can exist, because that would be dealing with the devil. This sounds great and makes one feel all warm and fuzzy and righteous inside, but does little to change things, and dooms more and more generations of pigs to the current way of things. The devil doesnt care how these pigs are shuffled around, he only cares about what he can make off them. Any business that cared about anything else above profit would be irresponsible. However if a company can make the same or greater profit by using a rescue or shelter as its source for animals, not only would it make profit but would be able to plaster all over signs and ads everywhere that it was doing this great laudable thing to stop the exploitation of cute furry creatures, increasing consumer support for the firm and most likely market share. This is the appeal of adoption through stores and this is the party line concerned owners must deliver to those in charge of pet stores, if the welfare of Cavia Porcellus the world over is to improve.

[Susan9608]

When does someone who has never owned a guinea pig, and perhaps never owned a pet say to themselves, "Ah yes, I feel like I would like a guinea pig in my life. Let me consult the nearest Cavy rescue center." The answer is never.

Actually, quite a few people on this forum have done research first and have ended up adopting guinea pigs rather than purchasing them.

Having a rescue fuel the demand of your local Petsmart is ideal, because pigs on "death row" are given homes, breeders are made obsolete, and the end consumer is none-the-wiser.

This is an excellent idea; unfortunately, while some stores participate in this sort of thing, not all of them do, particularly in the big chain stores. Some of the big chains do adoptions only while others still sell animals. How are you to know which is which? You can't - which is why you have to take the hard line, the "rigid mentality", to boycott them until the policy of selling animals is completely reversed.

What I'm not understandin is what your point is. You don't agree with the rigid mentality, but you see that overpopulation is a problem that pet stores contribute to. So ... what are you advocating here?

What I am objecting to is this rigid mentality that they are evil, we are good, and no cooperation can exist, because that would be dealing with the devil. This sounds great and makes one feel all warm and fuzzy and righteous inside, but does little to change things, and dooms more and more generations of pigs to the current way of things

It actually does a lot to change things. This same rigid mentality brought about the end of the sales of dogs and cats in pet stores. I don't see why the same thing can't happen with guinea pigs, chinchillas, hamsters, etc.

The more people are educated about this, the more people will boycott pet stores that sell animals. And maybe, when stores realize that selling animals isn't making them any revenue, then and only then will they realize that adoption is the way to go.

(Edited to add:

but screaming at them and acting like the morons at PETA is really not a constructive way to instigate change.

- you might want to be careful with these kinds of statements. I - and many others on this forum - are very PROUD to be one of "the morons at PETA".)

[jackrungh]

Actually, quite a few people on this forum have done research first and have ended up adopting guinea pigs rather than purchasing them.

Theres the rub, right there exactly. Quite a few people on this forum.

Most people never get or go this far in their ownership of any pet, and while it was wrong of me to call you who are members of PETA "morons", again it is a unwavering ethic and combative position that prevents your own goals from being realized. That is what I mean when I speak of things moronic. The flood of customers going to Petsmart and Petco are not member of PETA, nor do they visit care guides and forums either on the internet or in any community about any pet they own. Yes education can help, but just like the noble work people in shelters do, that is an uphill battle. When you combine the uphill, effort-intensive battle of re-education with a combative attitude towards those in a position to change things (Pet store CEOs), you have a nearly hopeless endeavour that does nothing but gain support from a minority and scorn from the majority.

If you want any proof of how the stance PETA has taken is percieved by the masses, visit Urban Dictionary: Define Your World and search for "PETA".

Susan, I know you and other mods have stipulated that critcism of this type is walking the line, but I would encourage you to see it as constructive rather than combative, as I impart no animocity into these typed words and seek only to expand the range of discussion on the issue brought up by this thread.

But, PETA opinions aside, and to return to the real issue here, you mentioned that you dont understand my point. My point is simply that while using boycotts and other combative measures to instigate change might work eventually, MORE change MORE QUICKLY could occur if one were willing to approach the problem rationally and pragmatically, rather than emotionally and indignantly. It would be more effective, in this case, to use diplomacy to satisfy both the goals of activists and those of corporations. Currently, all that seems to be happening is non-cooperation with pet stores or worse, combative action.

You need to realize that just like the thousands of pigs out there and the thousands of breeders and the thousands of stores, there are thousands of pet purchasers that dont know anything, many of whom will never know about your education campaigns or rescues or about the overpopulation problems. The best solution is to create a system that doesnt require them to know. The best solution, it seems to me, is a system that doesnt rely on lots of humans to be virtuous. The best solution is one that either only relies on a few to be, or one that uses market forces to force humans to be virtuous in order to serve their own self-interest. While the idea of selling pigs for profit might make your stomach turn, you could retrofit your shelters to market to stores, offer compeditive prices to breeders, and use the invisible hand to push the world your way.

Your way, the father still buys his little girl a guinea pig from Petsmart and gives it up 8 months later when she loses interest, likely meaning death for the pig. My way, that guinea pig was already saved from some nasty fate, and in all probability, will be again.

[Susan9608]

Theres the rub, right there exactly. Quite a few people on this forum.

You've misunderstood me. My point was that many people, PRIOR to becoming members of this forum, did research on guinea pigs and came to the conclusion that it's better to adopt.

Most people never get or go this far in their ownership of any pet, and while it was wrong of me to call you who are members of PETA "morons", again it is a unwavering ethic and combative position that prevents your own goals from being realized.

Well that certainly explains why PETA's had so many successes - their unwavering ethic and combative position has prevented them from realizing their goals.

Susan, I know you and other mods have stipulated that critcism of this type is walking the line, but I would encourage you to see it as constructive rather than combative, as I impart no animocity into these typed words and seek only to expand the range of discussion on the issue brought up by this thread.

Yes, using the terms "moron" and "moronic" are certainly constructive and contain no hint of animosity.

While the idea of selling pigs for profit might make your stomach turn, you could retrofit your shelters to market to stores, offer compeditive prices to breeders, and use the invisible hand to push the world your way.

Perhaps it's just because I'm a PETA moron, but this makes no sense to me, and I'm *still* not quite sure what you're suggesting here. Offer competitive prices to breeders? Do you not realize that one of the goals here is to eliminate breeders?

It's all well and good to say that it would be better to have the pet stores act as adoption agencies, rather than point-of-sale outlets for small animals, but HOW do you think you're going to make that happen? If people are, at this point, willing to walk in and purchase an animal, why in the world would a pet store be willing to undergo the significantly increased costs to serve as a rescue only?

You need to realize that just like the thousands of pigs out there and the thousands of breeders and the thousands of stores, there are thousands of pet purchasers that dont know anything, many of whom will never know about your education campaigns or rescues or about the overpopulation problems.

Actually, I don't think I need to realize that. It's a very defeatist attitude. I don't know that I can't eventually reach everyone because I haven't yet exhausted every possible opportunity and/or method of doing so. I firmly believe it's possible to educate everyone adn bring about an end to the sale of animals in pet stores.

Do you not realize that it's already happened with dogs and cats? You don't see many pet stores any more selling dogs and cats. People boycotted that idea, and look at the results. Chalk one up for the morons at PETA and all the other morons out there who failed to realize that education couldn't reach enough people to make a difference.

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by jackrungh

Currently, all that seems to be happening is non-cooperation with pet stores or worse, combative action.

Your assumption that we haven't made many, many attempts to go down that road is not correct.

Also, this is a grass roots effort and not the only effort. The messages across the internet are powerful. Thanks in good part to a lot of very dedicated members HERE and a few other 'forums.' The future of TV merging with the internet is on our doorstep.

I'd like to know what you are 'doing' to effect change, aside from criticizing us and our efforts, which are far more than just talk.

Originally Posted by jackrungh

it is a unwavering ethic and combative position that prevents your own goals from being realized.

Au contraire. Our goals are slowly but surely happening. Rome wasn't built in a day. We will not accept defeatist attitudes. You can call it combative if you like.

Originally Posted by Susan9608

Do you not realize that it's already happened with dogs and cats? You don't see many pet stores any more selling dogs and cats. People boycotted that idea, and look at the results. Chalk one up for the morons at PETA and all the other morons out there who failed to realize that education couldn't reach enough people to make a difference.

AND rabbits!


I've got a lot more I could say on this, but I just don't have the time to devote on it right now. I'm behind in my work and need to focus on that for a while. I will come back to this later....

[jackrungh]

Before I launch this next salvo, I'd like to say that my moron comment notwithstanding, im not fighting with you, im debating, and it would be nice if we could continue to argue our points without getting inflammatory. Because I continue to be opposed to your ethic is no reason to heighten your irritation with every post. Additionally, because in this back and forth I cant continue to write essays, ill convert to your bullet point mode of debate.

You've misunderstood me. My point was that many people, PRIOR to becoming members of this forum, did research on guinea pigs and came to the conclusion that it's better to adopt.

Ok, you have a point there, but lets not get caught in semantics. I think we can both agree that the many people (and there are many) who research pets before they buy them comprise a minority of the pet owning populace. This is especially true for guinea pigs, which are largely seen (by the populace) as a non-consequence pet suitable for impulse buying. This reality is not a good one, but it is nevertheless the truth.

I'm *still* not quite sure what you're suggesting here. Offer competitive prices to breeders? Do you not realize that one of the goals here is to eliminate breeders?

Right, breeders as they exist today are something to be eliminated, but theres more than one way to skin a cat producer. My suggestion was that you operate shelters in such a way as to provide guinea pigs to stores at prices compeditive with the breeders. If you can do that, and maintain your shelter as one that does not seek to actively breed cavys (troubled sows with unintentional pregnancy pre-shelter counts as a rescue endeavour), then you dont NEED to force the breeders to go out of business. You simply make them obsolete. And with shelters taking over large portions of the guinea pig supply chain, less breeding occurs, and overpopulation is reduced.

t's all well and good to say that it would be better to have the pet stores act as adoption agencies, rather than point-of-sale outlets for small animals, but HOW do you think you're going to make that happen? If people are, at this point, willing to walk in and purchase an animal, why in the world would a pet store be willing to undergo the significantly increased costs to serve as a rescue only?

This ties into the previous point largely, and the simple answer is that store wouldnt have to be coerced into doing anything or be willing to change at all. On their end, very little would change except who they got their animals from. If shelter pigs were cheaper than breeder pigs, you wouldnt have to hig CEOs over the head with a mallet to make them buy shelter pigs. Your ethos of protest and boycott tries to get them to do what is bad for them and good for you, which is why you meet resistance at all.

I firmly believe it's possible to educate everyone adn bring about an end to the sale of animals in pet stores.

Definately. I totally agree. However it will take many years, and while you yell and spread leaflets and petition, guinea pigs are dying. I am not disagreeing with your feelings and compassion, im saying theres a faster way to help the pigs.

Do you not realize that it's already happened with dogs and cats? You don't see many pet stores any more selling dogs and cats. People boycotted that idea, and look at the results.

Again we come to the issue of the majority of owners vs the minority of activists. In respecting the rights of dogs and cats, the two groups were completely aligned. Activists wanted better treatment and a solution to the same sort of breeding and overpopulation problems, and the cause was easy to diseminate because everyone and their mother has a dog or a cat. Dogs and cats are the bread and butter of dometicised pets, and activists had an instant "in" with every dog or cat lover, which meant pretty much every owner. The number of people who own guinea pigs is a much smaller number. Even more than that, the perception of a guinea pig is much different, and unfortunately, not different in a good way. When I tell people about my guinea pig many of them are surprised you can own them as pets. Many of them consider them as purely a lab animal, and even more: they are OK with that supposed reality for guinea pigs. I am not condoning this perception, and by no means is this the universal response, but nearly no one would ever hear about dogs and cats being experimented on and be OK with it. More people are OK with that sad fact about guinea pigs.

For these reasons, the fight for guinea pigs will be much much harder than it was for dogs and cats. You can think of it like sports. No one had to fight to get football or baseball on american television, but soccer struggles by every year, and only after a concerted effort has it gained a foothold in the minds of americans.

However unlike soccer, there is a better way for guinea pigs. A way to take the valuable rescue effort already in progress, and use it to feed the public demand for guinea pigs as pets. And along with the compeditive prices from shelters, the deal could be greased with the great PR possibilities of providing a more humane way of marketing pets. Along with that could be new policies at the storefront, tips on care, references to the shelter's information database, because, as the supplier, shelters would have some sway over pet stores. More emphasis could be brought to the end consumer about good care regimens and the unique needs of guinea pigs, as well as more interest in the rewarding aspects of guinea pigs, apart from their obvious draw as a cute and furry animal for ones children (again, public perception, not mine).

I posit that more "education" could be wrought through this influence shelters would have on the store, than could be brought from spreading leaflets and informing the few people who stumble upon our community of cavy-lovers.

[PiggieMom]

I do see the point you are trying to make jackrungh and I think it is an excellent though flawed one. What you explain to me would be an idea situation: pet stores and rescues working together to eliminate breeders and therefore eliminating overpopulation. However as I said it is flawed. I'm just going to list the flaws I see in it right now of the top of my head. I don't have any solutions to them, some may have obvious solutions to others though.

-The cost of running a rescue makes donations key. One of the main way of getting donations is through adoption fees. This would be eliminated if rescues had to undercut breeder's prices.
-Breeders would keep trying to undercut rescues until the rescues do not get reimbursed at all.
-Many pet stores breed their own
-Many rescued animals have special needs and need to be taken care of properly while waiting to find forever homes. I would not trust pet store employees to handle this.
-Rescuers would loose the ability to screen potential owners
-Many pet stores sell foods/cages/toys that are harmful to animals and give out awful pet care advice/instructions. This would continue to perpetuate this practice as the situation you present would not force the pet store to change anything. If I was adopting out my pigs through a store I would want them to only sell quality pellets and hay and no pet store cages unless they met the cage requirements presented here on GuineaPigCages. They would loose a lot of money if they could not sell the more expensive pet store cages and worthless toys and Vitamin C drops, ect.
-Many pet stores keep their small animals in deplorable conditions causing them to be sick and/or pregnant. I would not want my rescues to go into that situation.

Again, what you suggest is a great idea but the pet stores would still have to change. I would want people to have to apply to buy. Cage requirements should go up. Proper care need to be given in the store. Proper care information has to be given out. And making these changes would initially cost the pet stores money.

I'm all on the boat for reform of pet stores. I believe that to purchase an animal a person should have to go through a process, no matter how small that animal may be. I believe that to own/work in a pet store you should have to take a course in the proper care of every animal you are selling. I believe that the cage standards for all animals are too small.

Me and my husband are hoping to some day open a store that only sells rescued animals, working as a satellite for the human society. I hope to sell all the supplies for C&C cages right there in my store along with quality pellets and hay. I will ask my customers to fill out an adoption form. I hope that selling supplies will help offset the rescue costs so I can keep the pet costs competitive.

There is a lot of work ahead for people in the animal activist community. I think it's important to take some action. As long as we keep moving things will keep getting better. I don't claim to know a lot about this world yet. My eyes were just opened a couple months ago. But I'm learning more everyday and it is thanks to this forum and the good people at PETA. I don't care what Urban Dictionary says about them.

Oh and jackrungh: No one will get inflammatory with you as long as you don’t with them. At least not here. You give respect and you get it back. I think that you’ve done a good job of keeping a cool head and explaining your point. I just wish you didn’t have such a skewed view of PETA. Maybe you should look into their organization some. They were really helpful to me when I made the decision to become a vegetarian and get involved in animal rights. And trust me, I’m no crazy person running around throwing red paint on people (before I found this forum I thought all PETA people did that on Saturday nights for fun!).