Breeders

[guineagalore]

Hello,

Why do breeder breed guinea pigs (cavies) when they don't get nearly any money from it Infact why do they breed them at all

[C&K]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]It is not about the money for most I suppose; It is about the glory of holding that "perfect" cavy at the show, or witnessing the miracle of life over and over again. Occasionally that also means witnessing death too, but they just don't dwell on that part.

I suppose, it is just different morals and values.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

[Percy's Mom]

Actually, for a lot of breeders it is about the money. They look at their "stock" animals as a commodity to use until it can't be anymore, so you're likely to see a "retired" sow having several litters back to back until she gets sick, in which case they stop breeding her or she dies, and they get rid of the body. It's supply and demand. When people buy from stores, the stores call the breeders and ask for more merchandise.

[C&K]

There is a difference though between breeders and mills. Mills are a certain kind of evil where tons, even a hundred or more pigs are locked up in tiny boxes, fed food that barely sustains them, and forced to have litter after litter until they die.

I think the kind of breeder that was being refered to here is more the kind that has maybe a litter or two every few months or even years. Still breeders, but the money can't be the primary motivation.

[Piggiemum]

I always wondered if it was them wanting to 'feel like God'? Knowing that they have the ability to allow new life to come into the world? I think it could be the 'God complex' for some.

[CavySpirit]

Mills are a certain kind of evil where tons, even a hundred or more pigs are locked up in tiny boxes, fed food that barely sustains them, and forced to have litter after litter until they die.

I think the kind of breeder that was being refered to here is more the kind that has maybe a litter or two every few months or even years. Still breeders, but the money can't be the primary motivation.

Actually, your view of breeders is a bit on the naive side. Mills are actually not synonymous with evil. I've a lot more to say on this, but don't have the time...

[VoodooJoint]

There are basically 4 different types of breeders

-accidental breeders
-show/hobby breeders
-backyard breeders (byb)
-mill/lab breeders

Accidental breeders – cannot truly be considered breeders. These are people who had a pet boar and sow accidentally get together, were sold a mating pair under the belief that they were a same sex couple or simply did not know better/think things through. These litters are unplanned and for the most part unwanted. The young produced will be properly rehomed if the owner does their research, dumped at a petshop (often with no financial gain), dumped at a shelter or kept by the owner/given to friends.

Show/Hobby Breeders – They breed to "improve the breed" (or so they say). Their main concern is perfect markings and body type. They claim that they are trying to improve the breed but the fact is that GPs need to be bred so young that they have no true idea of what the health in like in the GPs they breed. There is little profit in show breeding as so much of the money goes to entrance fees, traveling to shows, etc. Their main concern is to win a little prestige and ribbons in the show world. Unwanted stock is culled by killing them, selling them at shows or privately or selling excess stock or off-type animals to petshops or at auction.

Backyard Breeder (BYB) – These are people who breed their pet quality animals for no other reason (that I can fathom) then because they can. Perhaps they want cute babies, want to witness the miracle of birth or simply do not care that their mix-sex animals are breeding. Usually they do not make a profit. Often they sell some of their animals to "mom and pop" petshops, trade them to those same shops for food and supplies or they may sell then to Bunchers or brokers. The terms "buncher" and "broker" will be defined below.

Mill/Lab breeder – These are large scale breeding factories. These types of set-ups do make a profit. They have a large amount of animals, which they keep breeding as often as possible. The animals are sold either directly to the lab or petshop or sold to the broker that represents said industries. Mill/lab breeders are notoriously nasty places (though not all are). Usually the animals are kept in small housing (so they can fit in more animals), the housing is inadequate and dirty (wire floors are common and cleaning is often irregular at best), are fed as low quality of a diet as possible (to maximize profits) and are bred over and over until they die, become infertile or stop having large, profitable litters at which time they are killed or sold.

More info
Broker – A broker is the person who supplies the perstores. Most large and small petstores get their animals from a broker, not directly from the breeder. The broker takes in an order from the petstore and needs to find that number of animal to deliver to the petstore. Sometimes the broker has breeders they deal with but often bunchers deliver animals to the broker.

Buncher –A buncher is a person who finds the animals to supply to the brokers. Bunchers have no problem buying animals from the very worst of breeders. Often the animals are sick or neglected. With some types of animals, bunchers are not opposed to stealing pets from people or picking up strays or answering "free to good home" ads. Some actually have the audacity to take animals from animal shelters (if they can get them cheap or free)

If ever you wondered why so many pet store animals are sick now you may have a clue. Let’s basically follow the path of 2 healthy, young sows as they travel from breeder/owner to the petshop. Keep in mind that these animals have been bred by a BYB who takes decent care of their animals. The sows are young, healthy and ready to be weaned.

-A buncher (seems like a nice young man) show up at the breeders house to see if she has any babies available. The breeder sells him her young sows. The man places the sows into a communal cage of other GPs in his van.

-The buncher stops at many other locations picking up animals. Many of the locations do not keep their animals well. This whole time (3-8 hours) the young sows have been in this noisy, hot van filled with animals.

-Back at the buncher's house/kennel he takes the animals out of the van and places them in cages. Many of the cages are overcrowded so he can keep cages available for the next days load. The sows are placed in a cage with many other unfamiliar cavies. Several of the cavies are ill.

-After a few days of this the cages are loaded back into the van and taken to the broker’s place of business. While unloading the van, the broker and buncher notice that a couple of the animals are dead or near death. They are thrown in the trash and the 2 sows are transferred to another cage with even more cavies in it.

-The broker gets an order from a large, chain petstore and another from a mom and pop store. The chain store wants 6 females. The mom and pop store want 3 females and 2 males.

-The broker hastily sexes the GPs. One sow is placed in a carrier with 5 other females. Her sister sow is placed in a carrier with the 2 other females and 2 males.

-The broker delivers the GPs to the stores. As he is taking the carrier out the chain petstore manager notices that one of the GPs is very ill. The broker takes that sow out and takes one from a cage of spare animals he has in his van. He has lost enough animals during deliveries to know he should keep extras on board. After their store vet does a quick look at the animals the sows are placed in a tank with other GPs.

At the Mom and Pop petshop the broker has delivered their "order" the animals are not separated by sex and are put on display along with some rabbits.

Both sows are purchased within a few days. Both become seriously ill. One is dead within a week and the other has survived because their owner got her medical attention at great cost AND it turns out she is pregnant. The new owner has decided to just give the babies back to the mom and pop store where she was bought.

It does not matter if the original breeder kept those 2 sows well. By the time you go into the store to buy them they have been subjected to countless diseases and stresses that can kill. The sows have been kept with males at the buncher and broker’s homes. It does not matter that the petstore only carries females.

[Ly&Pigs]

I always wondered if it was them wanting to 'feel like God'? Knowing that they have the ability to allow new life to come into the world? I think it could be the 'God complex' for some.

We are going to leave any religious aspects out of this discussion entirely. Thank you.

[Access]

Here's another. Some people have a natural urge to imitate and compete. They see someone else doing something and they want to do it also, or prove they can do it better. They convince themselves the act is not bad because they are able to surround themselves with others who also do it. They are trying to be the 'best', to have the most pigs, the best-looking ones, or the like. Eventually, it becomes an obsession, and like any obsession it can lead to one's own destruction. That normal people see what they are doing as 'strange', 'bizarre', and even 'harmful' pushes them farther away from reality and real life and more into their own world, surrounded only by those who think like they do. I remember a thread a while ago about a guy who died and left behind 500 pigs. At the end of the road, the numbers can be quite outrageous.

[Piggiemum]

Originally Posted by Ly&Pigs

We are going to leave any religious aspects out of this discussion entirely. Thank you.

Oh, sorry, I was using it as a common psychological term used to describe and define a particular anti-social behavior spanning all populations and beliefs. Thanks for the heads-up; I will be more careful in the future and look at how it could be taken.

[Whit23ney]

O.K. with all these horrible images now in my head....(not that I want to go buying a guinea pig or anything....we have six) where is someone supposed to get a good healthy piggie? I'm assuming that most of the piggies in rescues were "unwanted" after being purchased from a petstore, meaning that even those piggies went through the same disease-ridden experience....
We have six cause before I found this site I ended up an accidental breeder. The cycle continued and we ended up with 4 litters before we got it all sorted out. We kept six, my sister took one of them, and the last litter of three.....Well I found a very good home for them, built them a C&C cage for the new owner, gave them a printed out manual of everything I could find on this site that they'd need to know, a bag of food, hay, and food dish/ water bottle. Included was a list of all acceptable fruits and veggies with literature on the importance of good nutrition for guinea pigs. ALL FOR FREE! She knew more than I did by the time I was done educating her. . I couldn't help it. I feel so bad that I brought these little guys into the world even if by accident. We're ecstatic with our six, and the woman we gave the last litter to still checks in with me to tell me how they are doing. I don't see how anyone could take babies back to the petstore....We now have figured out (the hard way) which ones are boys and which ones are girls and have them in seperate cages. No more babies! We're probably going to get the boys fixed so we can let them play together during floor time. All and all we've spent over a thousand dollars with everything we've gone through with these guys. We're lucky we didn't lose any of them. See what happens when you buy from a petstore? You should have to take a class before adopt a guinea pig. There's so much to know....and I thought they were just like larger, more durable hamsters! ha! We all know better now though!
Names of our babies: 1.)Kitty (the big mama who started it all)
2.)Milkshakes - the first daughter
3.)Cocomo - the first son - went to my sister
4.)Beethoven - Milkshake's baby girl
5.)Duncan - the only in Kitty's 2nd litter
6.)Pepper - Milkshake's baby boy
7.)Rachet (now Rachetta) - Milkshake's baby boy....oops...girl!
8.)Baby #1 - Rachetta's baby - went to good home
9.)Baby #2 - Rachetta's baby - went to good home
10.)Baby #3 - Rachetta's baby - went to good home

Yes people, one store bought guinea pig ended up being 10!!! Yes 10!
Now that's we've got 4 girls and 1 boy I've got to redesign my C&C cage. I had a two story 2X5 with 3 on each floor. Now that we've discovered Rachet is Rachetta, we've got 2 boars on bottom and 4 girls on top. 4 piggies in a 2X5 space is not enough room! Plus I've got to split up the boys who just recently started trying to kill each other. They are 6 months old now and I think they hit puberty. Duncan keeps trying to attack Pepper. Poor Pepper I had to put up a 2 grid divider in there and Duncan spends the whole day trying to take it down with his teeth! while Pepper cowars in the corner farthest from the wall. I think Duncan is posessed! Just kidding. Heed the advise of this site and stay the hell away from petstores....Oh, and learn how to determine the sex of your guinea pig......
Cavy Lover,
Whitney

[VoodooJoint]

Originally Posted by Whit23ney

where is someone supposed to get a good healthy piggie? I'm assuming that most of the piggies in rescues were "unwanted" after being purchased from a petstore, meaning that even those piggies went through the same disease-ridden experience....

The differance would be that rescue animals usually see a good vet and the illnesses you will find in breeder/neglect animals have been treated. The rescue often knows of any long term illnesses/disabilities the animal may have as well because so many rescued animals stay in rescue for a while and their caregivers get to know them well.

[Piggersrule]

Originally Posted by VoodooJoint

There are basically 4 different types of breeders

-accidental breeders
-show/hobby breeders
-backyard breeders (byb)
-mill/lab breeders

Accidental breeders – cannot truly be considered breeders. These are people who had a pet boar and sow accidentally get together, were sold a mating pair under the belief that they were a same sex couple or simply did not know better/think things through. These litters are unplanned and for the most part unwanted. The young produced will be properly rehomed if the owner does their research, dumped at a petshop (often with no financial gain, dumped at a shelter or kept by the owner/given to friends.

Show/Hobby Breeders – They breed to "improve the breed" (or so they say). Their main concern is perfect markings and body type. They claim that they are trying to improve the breed but the fact is that GPs need to be bred so young that they have no true idea of what the health in like in the GPs they breed. There is little profit in show breeding as so much of the money goes to entrance fees, traveling to shows, etc. Their main concern is to win a little prestige and ribbons in the show world. Unwanted stock is culled by killing them, selling them at shows or privately or selling excess stock or off-type animals to petshops.

Backyard Breeder (BYB) – These are people who breed their pet quality animals for no other reason (that I can fathom) then because they can. Perhaps they want cute babies, want to witness the miracle of birth or simply do not care that there mix-sex animals are breeding. Usually they do not make a profit. Often they sell some of their animals to "mom and pop" petshops, trade them to those same shops for food and supplies or they may sell then to Bunchers or brokers. The terms "buncher" and "broker" will be defined below.

Mill/Lab breeder – These are large scale breeding factories. These types of set-ups do make a profit. They have a large amount of animals, which they keep breeding as often as possible. The animals are sold either directly to the lab or petshop or sold to the broker that represents said industries. Mill/lab breeders are notoriously nasty places (though not all are). Usually the animals are kept in small housing (so they can fit in more animals), the housing is inadequate and dirty (wire floors are common and cleaning is often irregular at best), are fed as low quality of a diet as possible (to maximize profits) and are bred over and over until they die, become infertile or stop having large, profitable litters at which time they are killed or sold.

More info
Broker – A broker is the person who supplies the perstores. Most large and small petstores get their animals from a broker, not directly from the breeder. The broker takes in an order from the petstore and needs to find that number of animal to deliver to the petstore. Sometimes the broker has breeders they deal with but often bunchers deliver animals to the broker.

Buncher –A buncher is a person wo finds the animals to supply to the brokers. Bunchers have no problem buying animals from the very worst of breeders. Often the animals are sick or neglected. With some types of animals bunchers are not opposed to stealing pets from people or picking up strays. Some actually have the audacity to take animals from animal shelters (if they can get them cheap or free)

If ever you wondered why so many pet store animals are sick now you may have a clue. Let’s basically follow the path of 2 healthy, young sows as they travels from breeder/owner to the petshop. Keep in mind that these animals have been bred by a BYB who takes decent care of their animals. The sows are young, healthy and ready to be weaned.

-A buncher (seems like a nice young man) show up at the breeders house to see if she has any babies available. The breeder sells him her young sows. The man places the sows in his van.

-The buncher stops at many other locations picking up animals. Many of the locations do not keep their animals well. This whole time (3-8 hours) the young sows have been in this noisy, hot van filled with animals.

-Back at the buncher's house/kennel he takes the animals out of the van and places them in cages. Many of the cages are overcrowded so he can keep cages available for the next days load. The sows are placed in a cage with many other unfamiliar cavies. Several of the cavies are ill.

-After a few days of this the cages are loaded back into the van and taken to the broker’s place of business. While unloading the van, the broker and buncher notice that a couple of the animals are dead or near death. They are thrown in the trash and the 2 sows are transferred to another cage with even more cavies in it.

-The broker gets an order from a large, chain petstore and another from a mom and pop store. The chain store wants 6 females. The mom and pop store want 3 females and 2 males.

-The broker hastily sexes the GPs. One sow is placed in a carrier with 5 other females. Her sister sow is placed in a carrier with the 2 other females and 2 males.

-The broker delivers the GPs to the stores. As he is taking the carrier out the chain petstore manager notices that one of the GPs is very ill. The broker takes that sow out and takes one from a cage of spare animals he has in his van. He has lost enough animals during deliveries to know he should keep extras on board. After their store vet does a quick look at the animals the sows are placed in a tank with other GPs.

At the Mom and Pop petshop the broker has delivered their "order" the animals are not separated by sex and are put on display along with some rabbits.

Both sows are purchased within a few days. Both become seriously ill. One is dead within a week and the other has survived because their owner got her medical attention at great cost AND it turns out she is pregnant. The new owner has decided to just give the babies back to the mom and pop store where she was bought.

It does not matter if the original breeder kept those 2 sows well. By the time you go into the store to buy them they have been subjected to countless diseases and stresses that can kill. The sows have been kept with males at the buncher and broker’s homes. It does not matter that the petstore only carries females.

That should be printed in the newspapers across the country for all to read.

[Myspoiltpiggies]

I actually bred a few years back. Now I look back and I don't know how I ever wanted to do it... it was a nice experience for myself. Now I am a lot less selfish and I wouldn't put my sows through it again. I had 6 wonderful litters and fortunately we had no stillborns or deaths.. not troubles at all. But if I'd have continued to breed I know it would have happened some day. The sows have no choice to breed and while one of my sows gave birth, she actually flipped right over onto her back while she had a contraction. It was horrible to watch and I think that's when I realised I didn't want to breed anymore. The reason I did was because I was a teenager who wanted to witness guinea pig births and raise babies. I also wanted to show (I quit showing just recently) so I wanted to be able to produce my OWN show 'stock'.. I didn't want to show a pig that I hadn't 'created'. I think what stopped me showing may have been the lack of care the stewards gave to the guinea pigs when handling them and the way the judges prodded them about.

I think all the downsides are ignored by breeders (overpopulation, deaths) and breeding is done purely for their own selfish reasons.. I'm just glad I saw through it in the end!

[Ly&Pigs]

Please, Please read the dates on threads before posting. Anything over a couple months old are considered dead threads and should be left alone. The last date on a post in this thread before yesterday was 05-24-06. Over a year old.

[MCR_Rox]

Originally Posted by VoodooJoint

There are basically 4 different types of breeders

-accidental breeders
-show/hobby breeders
-backyard breeders (byb)
-mill/lab breeders

Accidental breeders – cannot truly be considered breeders. These are people who had a pet boar and sow accidentally get together, were sold a mating pair under the belief that they were a same sex couple or simply did not know better/think things through. These litters are unplanned and for the most part unwanted. The young produced will be properly rehomed if the owner does their research, dumped at a petshop (often with no financial gain, dumped at a shelter or kept by the owner/given to friends.

Show/Hobby Breeders – They breed to "improve the breed" (or so they say). Their main concern is perfect markings and body type. They claim that they are trying to improve the breed but the fact is that GPs need to be bred so young that they have no true idea of what the health in like in the GPs they breed. There is little profit in show breeding as so much of the money goes to entrance fees, traveling to shows, etc. Their main concern is to win a little prestige and ribbons in the show world. Unwanted stock is culled by killing them, selling them at shows or privately or selling excess stock or off-type animals to petshops.

Backyard Breeder (BYB) – These are people who breed their pet quality animals for no other reason (that I can fathom) then because they can. Perhaps they want cute babies, want to witness the miracle of birth or simply do not care that there mix-sex animals are breeding. Usually they do not make a profit. Often they sell some of their animals to "mom and pop" petshops, trade them to those same shops for food and supplies or they may sell then to Bunchers or brokers. The terms "buncher" and "broker" will be defined below.

Mill/Lab breeder – These are large scale breeding factories. These types of set-ups do make a profit. They have a large amount of animals, which they keep breeding as often as possible. The animals are sold either directly to the lab or petshop or sold to the broker that represents said industries. Mill/lab breeders are notoriously nasty places (though not all are). Usually the animals are kept in small housing (so they can fit in more animals), the housing is inadequate and dirty (wire floors are common and cleaning is often irregular at best), are fed as low quality of a diet as possible (to maximize profits) and are bred over and over until they die, become infertile or stop having large, profitable litters at which time they are killed or sold.

More info
Broker – A broker is the person who supplies the perstores. Most large and small petstores get their animals from a broker, not directly from the breeder. The broker takes in an order from the petstore and needs to find that number of animal to deliver to the petstore. Sometimes the broker has breeders they deal with but often bunchers deliver animals to the broker.

Buncher –A buncher is a person wo finds the animals to supply to the brokers. Bunchers have no problem buying animals from the very worst of breeders. Often the animals are sick or neglected. With some types of animals bunchers are not opposed to stealing pets from people or picking up strays. Some actually have the audacity to take animals from animal shelters (if they can get them cheap or free)

If ever you wondered why so many pet store animals are sick now you may have a clue. Let’s basically follow the path of 2 healthy, young sows as they travels from breeder/owner to the petshop. Keep in mind that these animals have been bred by a BYB who takes decent care of their animals. The sows are young, healthy and ready to be weaned.

-A buncher (seems like a nice young man) show up at the breeders house to see if she has any babies available. The breeder sells him her young sows. The man places the sows in his van.

-The buncher stops at many other locations picking up animals. Many of the locations do not keep their animals well. This whole time (3-8 hours) the young sows have been in this noisy, hot van filled with animals.

-Back at the buncher's house/kennel he takes the animals out of the van and places them in cages. Many of the cages are overcrowded so he can keep cages available for the next days load. The sows are placed in a cage with many other unfamiliar cavies. Several of the cavies are ill.

-After a few days of this the cages are loaded back into the van and taken to the broker’s place of business. While unloading the van, the broker and buncher notice that a couple of the animals are dead or near death. They are thrown in the trash and the 2 sows are transferred to another cage with even more cavies in it.

-The broker gets an order from a large, chain petstore and another from a mom and pop store. The chain store wants 6 females. The mom and pop store want 3 females and 2 males.

-The broker hastily sexes the GPs. One sow is placed in a carrier with 5 other females. Her sister sow is placed in a carrier with the 2 other females and 2 males.

-The broker delivers the GPs to the stores. As he is taking the carrier out the chain petstore manager notices that one of the GPs is very ill. The broker takes that sow out and takes one from a cage of spare animals he has in his van. He has lost enough animals during deliveries to know he should keep extras on board. After their store vet does a quick look at the animals the sows are placed in a tank with other GPs.

At the Mom and Pop petshop the broker has delivered their "order" the animals are not separated by sex and are put on display along with some rabbits.

Both sows are purchased within a few days. Both become seriously ill. One is dead within a week and the other has survived because their owner got her medical attention at great cost AND it turns out she is pregnant. The new owner has decided to just give the babies back to the mom and pop store where she was bought.

It does not matter if the original breeder kept those 2 sows well. By the time you go into the store to buy them they have been subjected to countless diseases and stresses that can kill. The sows have been kept with males at the buncher and broker’s homes. It does not matter that the petstore only carries females.

I have a pet store site, and was wondering if I could put that on it. I would give you credit.

The site:
Pet Store Truth | The Reality of Pet Stores.

EDIT: Sorry if I shouldn't have posted. I, too, didn't read the date, and didn't think it'd be dead if someone posted. I'm very sorry.