Dumb Dog

[AnimalHouse36]

She has arthrites so we can't excersize her too much. She is on meds but they don't help much so in our mind, she is aging.

My dog has been attacked before by other dogs (see http://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/...ir-dog-do.html) so she only feels comfortable around a select few of dogs.

Me and my dad are runners and he'd a hiker. But as mentioned, she gets most of her excersize on the weekends and we walk her and play fetch with her over the week.

Do you happen to know about the method I suggested?

[Angelgal]

You said she was a lab right? Has she always been this way, these behaviours or is this more recent? 6 years old is mid age, even young. I would consider gettting her vetted to rule out any other aging health problems (like thyroid problems) which can cause the animal to be irritable and decreased in activity. Just a thought.


I personally don't know much about clicker training, I've never been coordinated enough to use it myself but I have seen it work for animals (dogs, horses and cats).

[AnimalHouse36]

She has always been this way but ever since she's been attacked I beleive it's gotten worse. She actually went to the vet two months ago because we found a lump. It turned out to be fatty and the vet checked for other problems but could find none.

I just saw an episode of It's Me or The Dog where a pomeranian would bark uncontrolably and Victoria would get a horn thing (lilke what you would put on a bike) and whenever he barked and got out of hand she would blow it and the dog would go away and she reapeated it. I think I'm going to go with that.

[guineapigluver1]

I was just about to suggest you watch the show until you saw one with a dog like such and see what she does. I wouldn't use what she did because pomeranians have a much higher pitched bark, but if you make a noise (like a high pitched Up! several times in a row) that is louder then there bark that will get there attention and when you do, If you get a clicker, when she stops barking use the clicker and give her a treat and say "Good girl!". I have seen Victoria use that and it works well for her.

[AnimalHouse36]

I just joined and posted the question. I'll tell you guys how it goes.

[crazywiggy]

Caesars methods based on dog psychoplogy? I have never laughed so hard in my life!!!

Caesar Milan has NO training in psychology / animal behaviour etc. His theories and methods are incorrect, having ben disproved decades ago. His methods are unnecessarily harsh.

Seriously - please avoid Caesar Milan. His methods are nothing more than the old fashioned "yank and stomp" methods that were disporved decades ago, and go against everything we now know about animal behaviour, learning theory, etc. Some of his methods are simply ineffective, but be careful as others can be psychologically damaging to your dog and may put you at serious risk of being bitten.

As someone mentioned previously - no one can give you an accurate diagnosis of WHAT is causing your dogs behaviour, or advise you what to do about - without them a) being an expert and b) actually seeing the dog performing said behaviours.

I would definately suggest finding a professional (and humane) animal behaviourist.

But if you want some things to consider in the meantime....

There is nothing to suggest this behaviour is dominance related. It sounds to me more like anxiety - of strangers, being left etc.

Please avoid any physical corrections. If your dog learns to associate certain events (eg you saying bye on the phone, people waking by the house etc) with an unpleasent experience her behaviour will probably get worse.
It is like this. Dog is afraid of strangers. She reacts with frustration, aggression because she is afraid. So you punish the behaviour. Dog learns that actually she does have a damn good reason for fearing these things - so her anxiety is increased.

What you need to do is reduce her reacticity to these events that trigger her behaviour. If the behaviour is a fear response, this may involve systematic desensitisation, so that she learns to associate these events with something positive and overcome her fear.

Your suggestion about clicker training - NO! This won't work and will make your life more difficult. (Sorry!)

The clicker is a reward marker.
Dogs learn by association - cause and effect. If a behaviour gets rewarded it will be repeated. The better the timing, the better the training - as the easier it is for the dog to understand exactly which behaviour is being rewarded. Actually rewarding a dog at the correct moment is difficult if not impossible - there will always be a time delay. The clicker overcomes this problem. By pairing the click with the reward, you can remove this time delay. The dogs knows that click means reward - and it is far easier to click at the perfect moment.

The problem with what you suggested is this....

The dog learns that click = treat, so the click becoms a secondary reinforcer. (The primary reinforcer is the treat itself).
If you click your dog when she is behaving badly you are effectively REWARDING her for it!

In theory - what you could do is get her to perform a desired behaviour (eg sit), then click and reward. But do not try to distract her with the click - it may undo the clicker training (if not paired with the reward) making the clicker useless, or it may actually reinforce the bad behaviour.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help, but really your best bet is to actually have someone round to see the behaviours in action. Hope this was some help though. Good luck!

[Angelgal]

I tried educating myself about Cesar ... visited his site, and I can honestly say I have never been more confused about something in my life! So unless I go spend endless amounts of money on his books/dvd's and whatever else he "sells" I will never understand his methods enough to know if they are humane or inhumane. Is he the one who does the "alpha roll" or whatever its called?? I know someone exlpained the alpha roll to me at one point, and I know Brad has two versions of a pin he uses (its in his exercises book) but man its nothing like what the alpha roll was explained to me... the "pin" was a heck of a lot more humane.

For me, I have likes and dislikes about different trainers. I'm the same way with horse training. I mix and match and see what exercises work best.
Though I don't think I like this Victoria's method of teaching a dog to stop barking ... but I'm also sure it's adjusted according to each dog (I would hope, I've never heard of her though) to me it seems like all that's going to do is cause a fear or general dislike to horns. This is how I keep my Westie (ugh terriers!) barking under control. When he barks AT me, I put my hand up and turn away or I walk away ... saying anything to him is only "barking back" and it will be an endless battle. He stops. If he goes to run to the window to bark at something, I interrupt him before he gets to ... I watch his body language. I will put him in a down and stay (my terrier is territorial aggressive).

Can't wait to hear how things are going!

[crazywiggy]

Angelgal - I agree there are few perfect trainers - I also usually find good and bad in most of them.

My objections to Caesar are as follows:

His theories are just the old, disproven theories given shiny new names. He assumes dogs are just wolves (they are not), and blames every behaviour problem on dominance (very few are actually dominance related).

He does not use food in training. Now food can be correctly or incorrectly, and some are dogs are motivated by food, others are not. But to simply refuse to use it seems a tad crazy. In fact - I get the impression he uses very little in the way of positive reinforcement at all.

He touts the benefits of adequate exercise (very good!) but thinks it okay for a dog to have only strictly controlled walks (no fun) or be put on a treadmill! He doesn't seem to consider their need to run, jump, play etc.

He uses abusive methods - collar corrections (sometimes severe), choke chains, prong collars, shock collars, hitting (oh I'm sorry - I meant jabbing the dog in the neck(?), alpha rolls (a physical attack on the dog likely to get you bitten), flooding etc.

His methods have NO basis in animal behaviour, learning theory or proven scientific knowledge. They are at odds with all the genuine experts. They are often ineffective, or simply mask problem behaviours rather than curing them. Many of his methods have to potential to cause devastating side effects, such as extreme fear or aggression. And of course he causes suffering to the dogs, and puts people at risk.

All this from someone who has never even opened a text book on dog behaviour! He has set back dog training and behaviour by decades and he is famous and well paid for it! Grr....

(Sorry rant over - made worse by having just seen his show advertised on the tv - and all I see is extreme leash corrections, jabbing, rolling etc. Makes my blood boil.)

[BabyBellie]

wow evidently you've all never watched his show. He uses food and reward a lot. However he also realizes its not the only solution. I've trained dogs using his methods, and they work well. I've never seen my friends cocker spaniel as happy as when we work with her using his methods

[guineapigluver1]

Originally Posted by Angelgal

I tried educating myself about Cesar ... visited his site, and I can honestly say I have never been more confused about something in my life! So unless I go spend endless amounts of money on his books/dvd's and whatever else he "sells" I will never understand his methods enough to know if they are humane or inhumane. Is he the one who does the "alpha roll" or whatever its called?? I know someone exlpained the alpha roll to me at one point, and I know Brad has two versions of a pin he uses (its in his exercises book) but man its nothing like what the alpha roll was explained to me... the "pin" was a heck of a lot more humane.

For me, I have likes and dislikes about different trainers. I'm the same way with horse training. I mix and match and see what exercises work best.
Though I don't think I like this Victoria's method of teaching a dog to stop barking ... but I'm also sure it's adjusted according to each dog (I would hope, I've never heard of her though) to me it seems like all that's going to do is cause a fear or general dislike to horns. This is how I keep my Westie (ugh terriers!) barking under control. When he barks AT me, I put my hand up and turn away or I walk away ... saying anything to him is only "barking back" and it will be an endless battle. He stops. If he goes to run to the window to bark at something, I interrupt him before he gets to ... I watch his body language. I will put him in a down and stay (my terrier is territorial aggressive).

Can't wait to hear how things are going!

Yeah, that makes sense about if the dog barks at you...I think it's best to combine different methods of training to train a dog, but most I would get from her.

[PixieStix]

Originally Posted by BabyBellie

wow evidently you've all never watched his show. He uses food and reward a lot. However he also realizes its not the only solution. I've trained dogs using his methods, and they work well. I've never seen my friends cocker spaniel as happy as when we work with her using his methods

I've watched his show, and I suspect CrazyWiggy has too. Food is a positive reward, as is praise, toys, etc. His methods are based very little, if at all, on POSTIVE methods. He prefers intimidating the dog by rolling, hitting, choking, etc them. Dogs can be training solely on positive reward systems, including clicker training, it is not necessary to have his old, harsh methods. I find it hard to believe the dogs you work with are truly happy with poking, hitting, choking (using various collars), and in essence, bullying them.

[AnimalHouse36]

Well I just thought I'd tell everyone how the training is going:

We're trying to get her to go to her bed, and once we get her in the bed she's usually pretty good. We just have to work on the hole knowing to go in bed on command! LOL!

[PixieStix]

Originally Posted by AnimalHouse36

Well I just thought I'd tell everyone how the training is going:

We're trying to get her to go to her bed, and once we get her in the bed she's usually pretty good. We just have to work on the hole knowing to go in bed on command! LOL!

Sorry, I'm confused. You're trying to get her to stop barking, but have been training her instead to go lay down? Do you send her to her bed when she barks or what, how is the bed tied in?

[AnimalHouse36]

On the Victoria website it says to have her do something to distract her from barking. So we distract her by getting her into the bed. Then, once she gets into the bed she's too comfy to start up a barking storm again! Hope that helps clear things up a bit.