Help with leash manners?

[mocha&frijoles]

"choke collars" don't really choke the dog. They aren't inhumane. And it definitely isn't bad advice. My job is all about animal rights. The technique in no way if used correctly is a dangerous abusive tactic.

We do private lessons with dogs in where we go to a persons house and train the dog in front of the owner. Many of which the dog is like the persons own kid since they have no real children. And we've never once had to explain that "oh it's OK" to them.

Secondly I've never had a dog yelp from a choke collar or a prong collar ( rarely need to use this only for dogs where nothing else works on because they ignore it). It's all about using the tools correctly and safely.

My job is part of a no-kill foster program. We save hundreds of dogs every year and their is no way that any of our workers harm a dog in any way. Everyone is trained from day one on how to properly use the tools we have. And if I thought it would be hurting the dogs I definitely wouldn't be using the tools.

Also not to mention the methods we use to train dogs works a lot better And and a lot faster then the technique where nothing is ever bad and you only reward them for it. That technique does not stop the unwanted behavior. They'll still do it anytime they want. Does it work, yes. Does it work better, no. Do many people know how to actually do it correctly, no. The technique teaches the dog that you like it when they do this certain thing. But it never tells them that "hey, you don't like this" about bad behaviors.

[crazywiggy]

Let us look at chokes and prongs then....

Choke chains:

The chain is much thinner than a standard buckle collar. Pressure = force / area. The smaller the surface area, the greater the pressure. A chain (even without the choking motion) therefore exerts far greater pressure on the dogs neck than a normal collar.

The chain forms a continuous noose - it can tighten an unlimited amount, ie it has the potential to fully "choke" if not released immediately.

Fortunately, most people know not to suffocate their dog... However, using a choke chain "correctly" does not make it safe. It is the jerking action that may cause a number of health problems - even collapsed tracheas which can be fatal. Think of it as similar to getting whiplash in a car crash.

Prong collars:
In terms of pressure they are even worse than the chain - all the force is exerted on a tiny surface area (the tips of the prongs). Want to test this theory? Get a ball point pen and jab it (blunt end) into your neck - it hurts. And you would almost certainly yank a dogs collar with far more rorce than this. With enough force you can put those prongs (even though they are blunt) through the dogs skin - causing puncture wounds.

Vets have seen a variety of injuries caused by choke chains, including: damage to occular blood vessels, tracheal damage, transient foreleg paralysis, hind leg ataxia, nerve damage etc.
One study looked at police dogs trained on chokes compared to prongs (post mortems were carried out to assess damage once the dogs has died). Of 50 dogs trained on choke chains 47 had permanent damage consistent believed to be caused by the chains.
Despite their archaic appearence prong collars are at least safer than choke chains in terms of serious injury.

Incidentally, it is usuall for the force to need to be increased as training progresses. These collars cause a build up of scar tissue effectively, and the dog becomes acclimatised to the pain, so you need to yank harder to get a result.

However, aside from whether or not they are "safe" there is no question about whether they are "humane".

Choke chains and prong collars HURT!!!

This is the ONLY reason they exist. Dog pulls / owner yanks = PAIN. It isn't distraction, it isn't mild discomfort, it is pain pure and simple. You can dress it up how you like but when you use these collars YOU ARE CHOOSING TO DELIBERATELY HURT YOUR DOG!

Why use pain anyway? Is it better?
NO!

As I said in my previous post, all the evidence suggests that pain-free methods based on positive reinforcement are the most effective.

There are many ways of training a dog to walk to heel that do not require a "training collar". This includes the stopping method I suggested above, changing direction, actively training the heel command (off leash) using luring and positive reinforcement, clicker training, leashing the dog in the house...... the list is almost endless.

The point I am making is that you do not NEED to use pain at all. You can train a dog to do whatever you want (regardless of age, breed, size etc) without resorting to painful techniques and pote tially dangerous equipment.

Did you actually bother to research any other training methods? Did you try them out, or find a trainer who uses them? Or did you just jump in with you abusive collars and start the old "yank and stomp" routine???

How about if I said:
"I need some money. I know if I politely asked my boyfriend to lend me some he would do so. But hey, I think I'll violently mug him for it instead!"

In short - why on earth would you CHOOSE to use pain unnecessarily?

Harnesses:

Read the post! Collars / harnesses etc do NOT train dogs - people do!

Chokes and prongs can in some cases stop pulling - the dog learns that pulling = pain. Take off the choke/prong and the dog learns pulling does not = pain. He IS NOT TRAINED!
Aside from the pain factor - lets look at harnesses and normal collars. A collar is less painful than a choke or prong. A harness is less painful than a collar.
SO WHAT?
The basic harness does not train a dog to pull - it doesn't say "good dog" when he does it and hand out cookies. The harness does nothing to reward pulling. It is a restraint, not a training tool.
Of course, the harness does not discourage pulling either. But why should it? YOU should be training your dog. Training him to understand what you want of him and walk nicely at your side. Without your input, no equipment can do that.

Almost every dog I have seen on a choke chain has been pulling - so don't try to tell mne it is a failsafe or effective method.

Converserly - my own dog was trained on a harness (standard type - not a no-pull), without extra rewards (not interested). She walks to heel (regardless of what she is wearing), sits before crossing the road etc. I also happen to know a number of large dogs (including rottweilers, labs, boxers etc) trained to walk perfectly to heel without any training collars.
Ziggy - you are making up your post as you go along (sorry to be blunt). Actually headcollars have been shown to work on dogs of all sizes - not just little ones. And yes, harnesses can be used during training too.

You want more info:
Misuse of Choke Chains
PETA Animal Times: A Pain in the Neck
Debbie Berriman (dog trainer and behaviourist) - No to Choke chains!
Greyhound Companions of New Mexico - Behavior Adoption Rescue
http://www.dogtrainingireland.ie/doc...in_leaflet.pdf
International Positive Dog Training Association

Can I point out I am also experienced with dogs / training etc. I have a first class honours degree in animal management. One of my lecturers was also a trainer and behaviourist. I have completed a number of courses in dog training and behaviour (practical and theory). I have trained dogs, and also groomed dogs. Hell, I also work full time with animals, and using training day to day. Of course I am also a dog owner myself.
Not to mention this is my primary interest - I have put in so many hours of research (published papers, books, websites etc) that it literally adds up to weeks rather than hours.

Please do not bother to spread you dangerous lies to cover up the fact that YOU ARE CAUSING UNNECESSARY SUFFERING TO THE DOGS YOU TRAIN!

[kathrynj]

I grew up on a property. We had several dogs, working dogs, who were also family pets (I used to dress them up haha).

No choke collar, prong collars, or anything were used, and they were trained to react to voice commands, purely through positive reinforcement, and walk to heel impecably.

The two dogs my father has, walk one on either side of him, almost as if to hold him up. My dad has medical issues and dizzy spells a lot. The dogs are like his shadow.

The dogs don't have temper tantrums, but my dad sure does! (he has PTSD)

[kathrynj]

Also not to mention the methods we use to train dogs works a lot better And and a lot faster then the technique where nothing is ever bad and you only reward them for it. That technique does not stop the unwanted behavior. They'll still do it anytime they want. Does it work, yes. Does it work better, no. Do many people know how to actually do it correctly, no. The technique teaches the dog that you like it when they do this certain thing. But it never tells them that "hey, you don't like this" about bad behaviors.

Nope, not true. Do you think a dog doesn't know a positive from a negative? Are you kidding?

[Jennicat]

Even if such a method does work faster, is it worth the breach of trust? If your parents were trying to teach you not to sneak out of the house, and did so by tasering you when you were sneaking off to a party, I'm sure you'd learn your lesson pretty quickly.

How would that make you feel about your parents? Would you trust them? Would it build a good relationship with them? Do you truly want an animal that mindlessly obeys your every command because it fears you, or because it's trying to please you? And if it's not about fear and pain, but "just the noise" (as I've seen some trainers claim) then why not use a clicker? If it's the feel of being tugged on, you can tug on a dog and use a clicker using a regular collar which does not form a noose.

When a dog is pulling, it is not being a "bad dog". It's not trying to savage a child, it's not trying to destroy anything, it is taking joy in being outside and seeing new things. I especially don't understand why someone would use such a negative method to quash their dog's excitement about going outside and having fun.

[crazywiggy]

Also not to mention the methods we use to train dogs works a lot better And and a lot faster then the technique where nothing is ever bad and you only reward them for it. That technique does not stop the unwanted behavior. They'll still do it anytime they want.

I will reiterate a point I have made before. Behaviours in dogs (and all animals and people) are not random. Dogs also do not have a concept of morally right and wrong like we do.

Dogs perform behaviours that are rewarding.

Pulling on the lead is self-rewarding. The dog wants to go for a walk, to get to the park, to walk at a faster pace etc. Pulling gets the dog what it wants. Pulling is rewarded, so the behaviour is reinforced, so the behaviour is continued / increased.

If you remove the reward (eg by stopping) you remove any reinforcement for the behaviour. This is technically known as "negative punishment". You remove something from the situation (ie the reward) to reduce the behaviour. Dogs do not waste their time performing behaviours that are not rewarding and actually cause them to NOT get what they want.

This method is therefore extremely effective at stopping unwanted behaviours - not just pulling but other things like jumping up, even some forms of aggression.

And unlike the more punitive methods of training - this method is far less risky. There is no potential for causing your dog discomfort, pain, suffering or physical harm.
There is also no chance of psychological damage. It is well known that the use of physical punishment (eg leash corrections, hitting, shocks etc) can cause long term stress and fear, and aggression.

So again:
You could train a dog using completely safe, completely humane, and highly effective methods.
Or you could train it using fear and pain, and risk causing serious physical and psychological dame.
If you have even the slightest consideration for animal welfare (and common sense) there should be no question which methods you shuold use.

[piggly wiggly]

I think choke collars are awful, but a prong collar should be illegal, they are horrid. I didn't think choke collars were that bad until I paid over $700 for a trainer from Bark busters to come in and train my dog. She brought a big case of every different size of choke chain, oops as she call it a check chain. I was like why does he need that, she said it is for training. When she showed me how to check him, I was uncomfortable, then we did it a few times on walks and people were yalling at us. Finally we said this is to horrible, and we stopped. So we were out $700, because of some stupid person saying she could train my dog with cruelty. He yelped every time on this choke chain. He was way worse on that then the regular collar. We could not get a refund because they have a life time guarantee, if the dog acts up again they will come back for free, and we don't want her back, so out goes the money. That is a good scam eh? Take their money, hurt the dog, give a guarantee, when you know they won't want you back, and keep the money.

[Ziggy&Herald]

CRAZYWIGGY there are no lies to cover up anything, and sorry but I do not MAKE UP posts. Everything I have said comes from what I have seen. I have never stated that choke collars are completely safe. I believe I said they have to be used correctly. I am fully competent to underastand the limitations that have to be observed when using this method. I have never had a trust issue with my dogs and they love to go on their walks. I can take them anywhere and have full trust that they will behave. Many people can not say that. There are many methods of training, however some of the links you provided about the other methods still have risks with them as well that you have to be aware of. If others work for you then that's fine, that is your opinion. But I have stated mine and since I have not seen any evidence of pain, aggression, or fear in my dogs, I will keep doing the things I know to work.

[Newpiggiemom]

My poor Samson was beaten in a previous life and I'm not going to do anything AT ALL that may possibly hurt him in the least. Choke collars looked barbaric, who wants to choke while they're walking? A prong collar, I wouldn't even consider. I think that patience and kindness is the way to go. My patience is the one is question and I will have to work on that.

Thank you all so much for the advice.

[crazywiggy]

Newpiggiemom - I'm glad to hear you want to stick with positive training methods. One thing I missed when I first read your post... you really need to get your husband to work with you here. No matter what training method you choose, you do need to be consistent. Good luck - I've noticed training men is much harder than training dogs!

I found some links that might also help you or give you ideas:
ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Loose Leash Walking: The Total Picture
Shut up and walk away: The art of Loose Leash Walking


Ziggy:

First I must apologise for the tone of my earlier post - you hit a nerve. Abuse in the name of training is one of me pet hates (and that is what I belive it to be). That was no excuse for me coming off as some psycho - and having re-read my post that is how it read.

My comment about lies and making stuff up was a somewhat over-reacting response to some of your previous statements. For example:

Harnesses DO NOT work, I don't care what anyone tells you.

Not true. You are right in that you will have trouble leash train a dog by trying to give leash corrections on a harness. But that is not the point of a harness - it is simply a restraint, not a training tool. The owner/trainer must teach the dog to walk to heel - the equipment used is beside the point. It is possible to train a dog to walk to heel whilst using a harness - I have done so myself. I have also seen people have success using no-pull harnesses.

All you are doing is getting the dogs attention. Not choking or causing pain.

This is one of my favourites! Can you please explain how a choke chain works then? It is quite simple - negative reinforcement, or positive punishment (whichever way you look at it). The dog learns that something unpleasent happens when he pulls or misbehaves. Choke chains are aversives. That is the whole point.
It is not about getting attention. If you are purely after the dogs attention you could speak to hmi, sy his name, make a noise, tap him etc.... The chain is not there as an atention getter - it is there to cause something unlpeasent to happen - i.e. pain.

As long as the collar is used correctly it it the best way to train a dog.

Also not true, or at the very least in your opinion only. Choke chains cause discomfort or pain simply by being used - and can cause injury even when used correctly. Secondly it isn't the "best" way. It is neither the most humane, most safe or the most effective. A lot of trainers have long since left choke chains behind and found better ways to train, which is why they are banned in many training clubs and rescue groups.

Instead of arguing about it lets look at the facts...

You CAN train a dog with a choke chain, or a prong collar, or a normal collar, or a harness. You can train without a leash if you like. You can use a clicker. You can use treats or toys or praise or nothing at all. You can choose to rely on positive punishment, negative reinforcement, negative punishment, positive reinforcement, or any combination.
But - choke chains and prong collars DO cause pain (that is the whole point). They CAN cause injury. They CAN cause behaviour problems.

There are many methods of training, however some of the links you provided about the other methods still have risks with them as well that you have to be aware of.

Now this comment I DO agree with! I am a little odd in the dog world as I am not a big fan of headcollars or crates. Headcollars inparticular - work great when fitted properly, used on the right dog, by the right person and in the correct manner. But they also have a high potential for causing serious injury - I do not usually recommend them without professional assistance.
However - avoiding any equipment which is potentially dangerous, and avoiding physical punishment, dramatically reduces the risk of behaviour problems and injury.

But I have stated mine and since I have not seen any evidence of pain, aggression, or fear in my dogs, I will keep doing the things I know to work.

This is your call - I doubt I could do anything to change your mind. But let me ask you this:

You know there are many methods out there. You know choke chains have a high potential for injury and behaviour problems, compared to other methods. You know (whether you admit it or not) that choke chains are aversives - by definition they cause something unpleasent to happen to the dog.
So why - as an animal lover - would you choose to cause your dogs suffering (however mild) when you know it is unnecessary?

I'm sorry - but the only answer I can see is that either a) you simply don't want to change, would rather stick to what you know etc. or b) you don't care about harming your dogs.
Would you at least consider for next time, learning more about other methods and trying them out first?

[Ziggy&Herald]

I can see your point that you are trying to get across, Crazywiggy. The dogs I own do not use the choke collars anymore. They are trained to walk with me without pulling and such. So, yes, they are back to origional collars. I only used them while training. However, having said that, with 6 dogs, I am at my limit right now. When I do get another years down the road, I probably will research parctices used at that time. I am the kind of person also, who likes to research things and get all the info available. Like anything else out there, practices are improved on over the years. By then choke collars MAY BE outlawed because there are so many people who do misuse them. Who knows, I may possibly see something I like better.

[luvsgiraffes]

Hmm... welll I am sorry for posting incorrect info, I had no idea that prong collars could cause pain to a dog. I was just repeating what I was told by the trainer that we got to. Again I probably should have done my own research before posting it.

I would never want to cause my dog pain and I must admit that when my mom first brought our prong collar home I seriously had my doubts and thought that it would hurt my dog. But she assured me of what the trainer had told her... that the pressure points are spread along the entire collar... it is a quick poke and then it is over.

Needless to say. I'm sure that my mom is still using it. I will tell her about this post and let her read it, and then we will see where to go from there.

Sorry this post is going to be long but I feel like maybe I should give some background on my dog and my family and then maybe if any of you have any training suggestions they would be much more informed. I am completely willing to listen to any advice that anyone has and would love to be able to train my dog with only patience and rewards. (treats love)

So I got my dog back in 2003. She was about 1.5 years old. We got her from the shelter and she was the one who was cowering in the corner. But I guess she sort of spoke to me. The guy who was taking dogs out said to me "If i can't get her to come out willingly then you won't be able to get her because I am afraid she is so scared she might bite you." I remember willing her in my mind to come out because I knew she was the one I had been looking for. She came out and I held her on my lap for about 15 minutes and knew that I was taking her home. But she had just had a litter of puppies so we had to wait a few weeks for them to spay her. I remember how happy I was when we brought her home. She was so quiet and mellow... although she followed me around everywhere. When I would use the bathroom she'd wait outside the door until I came out. Even when I was in the shower. When I would leave her at home with my sister she would cry and howl. I felt so bad for her, it was like she had separation anxiety. Also we noticed that she was probably abused because if we came in from above her head to pet her she would flinch... But she was really good about letting us pet her stomach... would come and roll over asking to be pet. Also she was really good when we first got her I gave her a treat and then wanted to look at it, without thinking I grabbed it back form her looked at it, then gave it back. I then realized my mistake. But when I took it away she did not growl or bite, only looked at me as if to say... hey... mom... you took my cookie!

So, walking her. It was a nightmare. We had her on a regular collar and she would just pull so hard that I could hear her wheezing. No matter how many times I stopped, told her no, etc she'd just be choking. I tried to get her on a harness so that she wouldn't choke but she just pulled so hard that at the end of a few walks she had a scab on the front of her chest where the harness had rubbed. (She is only about 15 pounds so its not like I'm being dragged down the side walk)

So needless to say whatever we had tried had failed. We took her to a petsmart training class where the trainer we had was wonderful. Believed in love and cookies. She encouraged us to buy a head halter gentle leader. This really seemed to work better than a normal collar only whenever we took it out our dog would run and hide in the corner. The joy of walking was taken away. Once we caught her and put the collar on and took her outside she was okie, but while walking she'd still pull.

Then, my mom was walking her and they came across 2 Dalmations. Needless to say, one slipped out of its collar and attacked my dog. She was in the animal hospital for a week until they finally let her come home. Now she is much better and completely healed.

Because of this incident we take her to a dog day care a few times a week so she can socialize with other dog off her leash. She is so afraid of other dogs that when they walk by her she will growl and bark and try to nip them before they can get her. (Even other large dogs) My mom figures that her barking at those dalmations may have riled them up even more than they were already. Anyways when she took my dog to the vet after she was attacked this was where she met the trainer we have now. Who gave her hope that we could help my dog to have better manners and not be afraid of other dogs.

So she taught us about a prong collar. When I have popped the leash while walking her sometimes she still does not listen, but after a few pops I do not just keep popping as I don't want to hurt her. Also my dog gets so excited that it is almost impossible to get her attention. Sometimes if I want to get her attention without popping her collar I literally have to grab her collar and make her sit. (Then touch her face so she is looking at me)

This is like taking her in the car. She gets so worked up that it doesn't matter what you do she is not listening. We've tried treats, petting her, letting her look out the window (which does help a tiny bit) and even popping her prong collar (as suggested by the trainer) it doesn't seem to do any difference. She just goes on yowling and running around as far as she can even going so far as to get herself tangled in the leash and I had to pull over because I thought she'd break her legs from thrashing herself.

I have also tried the patience thing as suggested where you wait for your dog to be calm before moving on to the next step. Honestly it took me hours just to put my shoes on and get the leash out. (and this was with me cheating and not putting it away only turning my back to her) I am a patient person but not this patient.

Finally when I took her outside it took me like an hour to get down our drive way. When I finally gave up and just walked her she choked herself.

But, now that we've had some practice with the prong collar, when I use her on just her regular collar she is pretty good. sometimes she pulls and then I pop her regular collar to remind her that we are going to walk at my pace and she will usually slow down.

Okie so sorry that is so long. I just feel like if anyone is going to make suggestions (Which I would love to hear) that they should know what I've already tried and my dogs personality. I can usually walk her with minimal pulling on her prong collar but my mom even with the prong collar still has some trouble.

And we would both love suggestions for the car as taking my dog anywhere is a pain.

Thanks so much and again sorry for the misinformed post. I would never want to advocate causing pain to your loved animal.

[mocha&frijoles]

A LOT of K-9 police men that I've seen when they have a dog they don't make them walk perfectly beside them. They tend to let the dogs pull really hard a lot of the time. If you are constant with the keeping them from tugging there is no damage.

And as for if my parents had done that. I'm not saying for her to use a shock collar to train the dog. I don't like those. I DO think those are bad. But when you're teaching your kids how to act in society and such. If your kid continually disobeys you what are you going to do? You'