Pittbulls

[piggly wiggly]

Thanks Jennicat for that link, I am so glad those two got out of here. This is what alot of us who rescue here have to deal with. If we get in a pregnant mom and say the dad was a pit, we are suppose to euthanize the pups when born. Then we are running the clock trying to find fosters in another province, or getting them to the U.S. I hate our politicians!

[Justin]

Please take my apology for underestimating subject sensitivity. Please do not upset as it blind people and lead them to make minor logical mistakes that I am having hard time not to bite.

Because of my respect of anti-BSL and animal activism in general, and because of the subject sensitivity and my Google reading on more logical anti-BSL arguments, I will not point out a few minor illogical statements or misinterpretion of the Clifton paper.

In general, although I do not agree in this specific subject, I sincerely believe that world is way much better off with anti-BSL activists. So as of now, I will cease my voice on this specific subject on this board.

See you in other threads.

[Ziggy&Herald]

I currently own an APBT, she is excellent with my kids other dogs cats etc. She does not have a single aggressive bone in her body. My 4# miniature pinscher will hang from her lips, chin, ears or anything else if she gets mad at her and my pit runs screaming. My min pin will bite anyone who tries to touch her if she doesn't know you. Now, I do not think this is funny at all, but others laugh histerically because it's "cute". If my Pitbull, Bullmastiff, or rottweiler that I also have even barked at someone walking down the street, I would get such an evil stare for having a "Viscous" dog. It's rediculous the way people act. If you decide to have one of the breeds listed as "mean" there should be responsibilities that the owner should take into consideration. You have to know what your dog "Could" be capable of doing and know that you should never let it have the chance. It all comes down to having responsible owners. If people would have taken responsibility we wouldn't even be talking about BSL's. These types of dogs can be excellent pets, you just have to know how to be a responsible owner.

[piggly wiggly]

I agree.
I have min pins, aswell as rescue min pins. People think it's funny, "oh look at the little guy thinking he is so tuff." But just walking my mastiff or doberman people would cross the street, because they look "mean". Meanwhile they are the sweetest dogs ever. Even my english bulldog gets glares from people because he has a big underbite and his teeth stick out, to some he looks vicious, like really. The above post is funny,and I agree. Most people have an assumption that small dogs are nice and big dogs are mean, when in reality most of the time it is opposite. I think a study should be done about that, I bet small dogs would be much higher on the list. Some min pins can be mean little buggers, aswell as pomeranians, alot of chihuahua's are vicious too.

[GermanGirl]

I never had a pittbull and I never had contact to a pittbull, but like every other dog I think I would like them, but in Germany in some towns/areas it´s not aloud to have a pittbull and in other regions you have to pay a high tax (1800 $ year). So it´s not easy to get a pittbull, but I would not wounder if I will have one one day.

[Ziggy&Herald]

I have a higher insurance premium on my home because of the breeds of my dogs. When getting the insurance they asked me if I had an alarm system. My reply was no, I have a 140# Rottwieler, why do I need an alarm? They just said OK and told me my rate had just went up. OH WELL, I love my dogs.

[crazywiggy]

Until you have lost a child to a pitbull you do not have any idea what damage they can cause.

I am extremely thankful I have never had to go through this. Losing a loved one, especially a child, is always a horrific, devastating, tragedy. My full condolences and sympathies go out to the families have had loved ones killed or maimed by dangerous dogs.
I also understand their reactions - grief and loss are horrendous emotions to deal with, and it is perfectly natural to want to blame and demand "something be done".

The problem as I see it is that the blame is misplaced, and the "something to be done" is never what needs to be done.

If you cannot control the dog, then it needs to go, I do believe that human life is more important than a dog that has turned bad.

Now this I do agree with. No one should own ANY dog that they can not control. And yes I do value human life above all else.

This is one of the two reasons I am opposed to BSL:

1) I care about human life - I do not want children or anyone else to be hurt or killed by dogs. I have no problem with genuinely aggressive dogs being humanely put to sleep. I fully support bringing in legislation to prevent dog attacks - but this legislation needs to be well thought out, logical and effective. BSL simply does not work - can not work. It will not prevent a single tragedy, so it is not "doing something" - it is a waste of time.

2) The ONLY effect BSL has is to penalise responsible, law abiding dog owners, and kill innocent dogs that have never so much as given a cross look - NOT because they are actually dangerous, but because some people don't think they look right.

Pitbulls and the rotwilder alike are known for turning on a person for no apparent reason at all, that was my only point.

Actually this common myth is total rubbish. Dogs do NOT attack for no reason, regardless of breed. There is always a reason - whether it is seen and recognised is irrelevant. Rottweilers and Pit bulls are domestic dogs like any other.
The only possible exception to this is "rage syndrome". Even so, rage is still not fully understood. There does appear to be a hereditary component to it, but many people have concluded it is most likely one of the usual forms of aggression that is simply not recognised at the time. Incidentally, rage syndrome is most common in cocker spaniels - not pits, rotties, or any of the other maligned breeds.

There is a very simple reason why statistically breeds like pit bulls and rottweilers cause the most attacks and fatalities. The people who own them.

Look around you at the criminals, muggers, thugs, drug dealers and dog fighters. Look at the kids from layabout, benefits families, skipping school to hang around the streets intimidating people. What breeds of dog do these morons own? Pit bulls, rottweilers, and anything else that is muscular and "mean" looking.
These aggressive, irresponsible, uncaring, selfish people do not go out and get a labrador, or a poodle, or a little toy dog. They want a dog that looks scary because they want to look hard, and often to behave aggressively so they can hurt or frighten people.
If these same people owned any other breeds, these would be next in line for BSL, as dog bites from this group would increase.
Both pits and rotts are incredibly popular - and often for the wrong reasons. I do not doubt that the vast majority of their owners are BAD OWNERS!

The people who get them for the wrong reasons are far from responsible. They do not get dogs from rescue, or good breeders, but puppy farms and byb's. They do not vaccinate, microchip or neuter their animals. They do take the time to learn about dogs and know sweet fa about dog care, welfare, safety etc. They do not bother to train and socialise them. They do not provide them with the exercise or mental stimulation they need to keep them sane. ANY dog in the hands of such a person is potentially dangerous - but as I said they don't get "any" dog, they only get certain breeds.

Look at what these killer dogs have in common. As Jenniact has already said, most dog bites are caused by un-neutered animals. According to the APBC the majority of biters are undersocialised.

And just look at the recent dog related deaths in the UK. One was by a "pit bull". I have nothing against pit bulls, but they are banned in the UK and have been for almost 20 years. By definition all pit owners in the UK are criminals. The dogs owner was a known criminal and drug dealer. It was known he wanted a hard dog, and liked to use it to intimidate his neighbours. The dog was known to be aggressive - a vet had already told them the dog needed to be taken to a proffessional behaviourist - which they did not do. The woman responsible for bot the dog and the child when the attak happened was high on a cocktail of medicines, alcohol and illegal drugs. The dog had been left outside on new years eve - one of the coldest and frightening nights of the year for most pets. The child was known to have tormented and teased the dog, the owner was known to have hit and kicked it. This child never stood a chance - and neither did the dog.
In another incident, th two rottweilers were kept purely as guard dogs. They received no human affection, no exercise, play, training, socialising or mental stimulation. They were left on the pub roof all day every day - so they could bark at people approaching! And some idiot "accidentally" gave these animals the opportunity to be alone with a tiny baby.

The list goes on. If you actually look at the vast majority of fatal dog attacks you will find only one thing in commen - bad owners.

I would also like to point out that child fatalities have been caused by a number of breeds, including dachshunds and a pomeranion.

The point is - the REALITY is - dogs do not bite or kill because of their breed, they do it for a reason. Banning breeds will not work because the bad owners will simply buy a different dog.


If we actually want to reduce dog attacks we need laws that will enforce responsible ownership and responsible breeding. Don't ban the dogs - ban the morons from owning them.

[Ziggy&Herald]

Very well stated Crazywiggy.

[mbator]

Originally Posted by GermanGirl

I never had a pittbull and I never had contact to a pittbull, but like every other dog I think I would like them, but in Germany in some towns/areas it´s not aloud to have a pittbull and in other regions you have to pay a high tax (1800 $ year). So it´s not easy to get a pittbull, but I would not wounder if I will have one one day.

Hi! My sister tells me the same thing about the tax, she lives in Switzerland, I think if we did that here in the US perhaps we would have more responsible owners. Good day..

[Alusdra]

BSL is based on research- but it is inherently skewed research. Like others have said- who is going to report being attacked by a Pomeranian? I've been bit by dogs twice- an Airedale terrier and a chihuahua mix were the culprits. And I've worked with abused, neglected, unsocialized pits and pit mixes for years. And I had aggressive dogs- some sort of shepherd/ border collie mix and a lab/shepherd mix. Did any of this get reported? No. And if it had, maybe that lab/shepherd mix would have been a 'pit bull'- his head was pretty boxy. Even if you really know what you are doing it is hard to tell what breed something is. One of the DNA breed analysis places has a presentation of all these 'pits' and 'lab mixes'- some of which you might swear were purebreds- and they end up being mixes of something else entirely- like a Boston terrier mix, for example. The reporting is skewed, the breed identification is inaccurate- basically it is very biased research.

Regardless, even if the data was accurate, I don't see how BSL will help anything. It's a deeper societal problem, not a breed problem. Any dog can be made to be vicious- the owners are what should be regulated.

Personally, I will probably not have a pit, unless BSL can be defeated (and probably not even then- they are too high energy for me). But my parrot is of a species illegal in a dozen+ states. If I had a pitt, too- I wouldn't be able to live anywhere. And the stress is horrible. What if I get pulled over in PA and they take my pet and euthanize her? What if she gets out and flies across the border to CT and they catch her and kill her? Or shoot her in the air? Etc. BSL/ species specific legislation is no good. It hurts me, the law-abiding citizen. What's it going to phase some drug dealer (who's going to be in much more trouble if ever caught and doesn't care if his dog is killed anyway?)

Dogs in danger

[diane]

The looks of pits scare me at first but if they do not act leary or weird I warm up to them real quick. But I am leary of most dogs until I can see how they react to me. My mother used to own a wolf and wouldn't part with it even though it hated me and would chase and try to bite me, I hated that dog so much. The few pits I have run across only about 3 or 4 are some of the sweetest well mannered dogs. Only down fall is when they wag their tail and hit me with it, I bruise so easily. Spend and afternoon with a pit looks like somebody beat me up.

Off subject but my cousin fed her neighbors dog (cocker spaniel) everyday for the owners. One day she walked over and the dog attacked to this day she has big gouges in her leg from that attack. What makes a dog do that though? Just one day start lashing out like that.

[aqh88]

The breeds aren't what need to be banned. It's the owners and the type of owners many of these breeds attract. Even if we can prove there are more bites by pitbulls it's not difficult to also prove that more pitbull owners are at fault for poorly handling and raising their dogs than some other breeds. The breed doesn't need banned the owners need educated.

I think everyone should be required to take a dog to a minimum of 6 obedience classes. That does 2 things. First the dogs are around other dogs and people (socialization) which cuts down drastically on bad reactions toward strangers, both dog and human. 2nd it teaches the dog basic manners and to listen to it's owners. That leads to fewer escapees bolting out the door or gate and less chance of biting accidental or on purpose.

The worst dogs in dog obedience classes I have been to are australian shepherds. They are the most reactive to other dogs and strange people and often overprotective of their owners. Love the breed but I'd place them as more dangerous to children than a pitbull. I know several families that have had to rehome their aussie because it nipped at or actually bit one of the children thinking it was protecting the others while they were arguing or wrestling. Next would actually be most terriers. Owners tend not to discipline small dogs as much leading to spoiled rather nippy dogs that are more likely to bite and have more trouble learning leash manners than most larger breeds. Again that's not the dogs it's the owners. A small terrier can be just as obedient as any other dog if the owner actually puts in the effort. In my experience from years of dog obedience classes the average pitbull (not those with owners who want some vicious impressive dog) falls well below many common breeds on agressiveness and chance of biting.

I don't know how many times it has to be said before it sinks into the brains of the pro BSL people it's the owners that are at fault not the dogs. If the pitbull (rottie, shepherd, akita... ) is banned these type of owners will just pick out another breed they think looks mean and raise it the same. Eventually if that's all we have left we'll have terriers and labs being trained for gaurd dogs and fighting. We will have the same problem so long as dogs exist as pets and irresponsible owners are allowed to have them.

Off subject but my cousin fed her neighbors dog (cocker spaniel) everyday for the owners. One day she walked over and the dog attacked to this day she has big gouges in her leg from that attack. What makes a dog do that though? Just one day start lashing out like that.

Dogs that are confined to a yard, pen, or room in the house without enough human or other dog interaction can become unpredictable from the stress and loneliness. They often become reactive (over reacting to noises, movement, and strangers as being a bigger threat than they are) and may be suddenly scared into biting for odd reasons. Dogs are social pack animals that need stimulation and should not be left alone for extended periods of time including all day while the people are off to work. Adding food to the mix the dog may just have been hungry and being overly reactive from lack of handling tried to chase your friend away in order to protect the food fearing it might be taken or eaten by the person. Many dogs need to be taught they don't have to protect their food from people.

[originalhandy]

When I fought BSL in my town the Coucilmember (who is no longer in office) had a dog that the court put down. On two seperate occasions her dog got out and killed 5 goats. She went to court and fought tooth and nail for that dog, and the next day went to Council meeting and talked like my Staff was the root of all evil.

The sad thing is that people who push these laws are often like her, they have their agenda, their opinion is better than yours and they use flawed studies the the one that is frequently used that the CDC put out, which they themselves admitted was flawed.

[ali's_pigs123]

Alot of people are afraid of them because they are stereotyped for being vicious. But I think that if they are raised properly and not around a fighting environment, they can be quite sweet.
But for around pigs, never. As with all animals, they are unpredictable when in certain situations.