What is 4-H?

[cookie_gal]

I'm from the UK and I don't think we have something called 4-H yet on here I see a lot about it. Can anyone explain it please?

Thanks

[VoodooJoint]

Here is their main website 4-H :: 4HUSA.ORG :: The official site for, by, and about 4-H youth in the United States you can learn more there. Just don't fall for their propaganda.

[cookie_gal]

Thanks, nah don't worry, I've heard enough about it, just interested in what it is.

[VoodooJoint]

Some websites pointing out the problems with 4h
4H
Animal Cruelty
Where Violence Begins, Animal Industries and the Cult of Aggression: Irwin Feldman

An interesting quote
I think that an important component of the 4-H program is to transform children from animal lovers into animal killers. Many 4-H participants take infant animals and raise them to “market” size. The children care for the animals, and often the children and the animals develop strong emotional bonds. The children and the animals reciprocate affection, and they trust each other.
Then, many children experience an emotionally traumatic experience that will likely forever change their attitude towards animals. Even though a given child has understood, intellectually, that the animal would be sold for slaughter, present-oriented children usually think about this unpleasant prospect only when that day arrives. On that day, a child who has bonded with the animal bids a tearful farewell (often finding a private place to emote since adults often express little sympathetic understanding) to a trusting, loving animal, who is oblivious to the betrayal.1 Subsequently, the child will likely be either wracked by guilt and self-loathing, or (more commonly) will come to see all farmed animals as “things” meant to be slaughtered and eaten. 5 November 2006 Issue - Christian Vegetarian Association Update Newsletters

[CavySpirit]

Here's a thread from this forum:
http://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/...reed+brainwash

For me: 4H should be 4B: Brainwash, Breed, Brag, Butcher.

[Jennicat]

It seems to be very similar to the FFA (Future Farmers of America, which I was a part of, although we did only plant related projects related to landscaping and greenhouses).

[grEEEn]

oh gosh I could never ever raise an animal only to kill it once it's fully grown. Nor would I ever put a kid through that, the parents of the kids on those clubs are sick!

[Himino]

I am in 4-H and have never seen or dealt with anything like the above mentioned things. But I'm not saying it is untrue or hasn't happened. I just joined 4-H this year. And I will say that it is a fun club to be in. We do have a few breeders (which I don't agree with), but most are just in it because they love the animal. My club is made up of all teens or childern and it's called the "Fur and Feathers Club". Maybe I should have researched more before I joined, but I find the club wonderful. We have meetings and sometimes guests. Most of the time we learn something concerning the animals themselves. How to properly care and raise them. I would never in anyway join somwthing that goes against my morals, so untill I see something that my club does is wrong I think I will continue to participate.

This in no way intails breeding, showing, slaughtering (I would be scard for life and crying), ect.. at least on my part.

[CavySpirit]

And I will say that it is a fun club to be in. We do have a few breeders (which I don't agree with), but most are just in it because they love the animal.

Almost every breeder that we take issue with does it for the 'love of the animal.' It's pretty much a given. Kids start breeding exactly for the fun club and social aspect of it. Adults, too. That is by far and away what they get out of it. You are on a very slippery slope . . . .

[Himino]

I hope no one's opinions of me changes. I think I will do some research and evaluate if it is a club I would want to asociate with, because I respect everyone's opinion on this fourm. I also have selfish motives for being in the club. My club leader is very important. Her daughter goes to the college I want to attend and is under the same section. She got me into contact with the Dean of that section. I now email him once a semester, and I have recived packets of info from him, including a application to the college with the pricy processing fee wavied. It will also look good on my college apps.
But I think my morals as a animal lover should come first, so trust when I say that if I see anything shady or against my believes I won't stand for it. I also hope to introduce C&C cages to my group members with cavies and rabbits. I hope to improve their animals lives, not lessen mine.

[CavySpirit]

No one thinks lesser of you. No worries. I just want to point out the rationalizations for what they are. Changes can only happen from within and by example, so hopefully, if you stay on the right bandwagon, you'll be a force for change.

[Slave to the Wheek]

WOW! I have been working on this response for several hours. It's even more lengthy than my usual diatribes but.. I can't seem to edit out anymore of it. So..I'm posting the whole kit-n-caboodle. What the heck! I mean, I know very few people will read it, but hey hubby thought it was interesting anyway. I just say that if you are going to respond to anything that I've said, please take the time to read my post carefully, as I've spent a lot of time assembling this so that it makes a degree of sense to the average reader.

It sounds like a few of you are only familiar with a portion of what 4-H does. This is long because I heartily disagree with some of the comments stated here and I want folks to understand my own story. Please note though: I do not support the 4-H Cavy Project at this time. I just downloaded the Washington State Leaders Manual (ohmygod!) and did a bit of googling. I'm VERY disapointed by what I see. Now that I know about it, I'll put it on my list of things to get involved in changing. I'll save that discussion for another day.

I personally think the 4-H program is one of the most important things I've ever participated in.

I was an avid 4-H teenager. In junior high and high school I was obsessed with my horse as well as my dog. I never participated in projects that were oriented towards slaughter as I had no interest in it. Especially being a farmer's child - I had zero interest in slaughtering or raising an animal to sell. I had to help do it at home and I hated it. Why would I want to do it for fun?

It seemed to me that kids who were in cattle, swine etc type projects, were kids whose families did it for a living, and their parents hooked them up so that they could get the kids to want to follow in their footsteps. I only met these kids during our annual county fair when I would wonder out of the stables and go over into the livestock area. I didn't see kids like me who were living in suburban areas (we lived 5 acre parcels) who were involved in that kind of thing. In fact, it was usually the FFA kids in my area who raised farm animals for slaughter.

I was in the horse project, the dog obedience project and for awhile a cooking/sewing project. I also dabbled in the rabbit project when a dwarf bunny showed up on my front lawn one day. That is until I found out the purpose was teaching how to raise them for butchering for money. Which is utterly ridiculous even in 1974 when NObody wanted to eat rabbits. Bleck. My father did raise them for butchering and I had zero interest in that! He gave it up quickly as he couldn't make money at it, and no one in the family could eat them. We mostly lived on chickens and eggs. We had a cow for milk and a cow for butchering once every couple years. There was always a turkey or goose or two. We had goats,for awhile, but dad hated goats milk and they were sold off. When I was really tiny we had guinea pigs once, for about a week before dad got rid of them, but that's a very sad story for another thread.

I mostly grew up on a small farm and we were poor. It was a big fight to own a pet, because they took food out of the family's mouth. The rule was if you couldn't eat it, or it didn't work for you it was a luxury we couldn't afford. I wore the same pair of pants all the way through my sophomore year of high school and ended up getting a job so that I could keep my horse for example. Dogs who didn't "work" were worthless. The job? They were to keep the jackrabbit's out of the garden along with neighbor dogs and coyotes from out of the hen house. The only cat was too keep the rodents under control. If they didn't do their "job" they were traded off. Literally. He would find someone who would trade dogs with him.

It's up to the 4-H club itself, the people, and the area they are in to determine which projects they offer. Some clubs are located in cities where there aren't people breeding or slaughtering farm animals. Projects can be made from almost anything that people want to teach.

Your 4-H Club can have projects revolving around ANYTHING including sewing, swimming, gardening, camping, growing fruits, parenting and childhood education, cooking, technology, small engines, crocheting, web design,

Many things that 4-H clubs are involved in are downright liberal.
4-H Earthforce - Home Page


The dog project taught the highest discipline of caring for dogs and how to train them. To this day, I credit everything I know to the wonderful lessons I learned on caring for pets from those wonderful project leaders. The horse project in my county was the only way I would ever have been exposed to true professional horsemen and women. They were wonderful people who held us to very high standards. We weren't allowed to whine that it was too hard to take care of our horses. No whining about getting up early to feed, or groom, no excuses for not knowing all 89 faults listed in the project book, and for not properly grooming, shoeing, or feeding our horse. Nope. I was so well taught, that when I saw other kids with horses it was a complete shock to me. I'll never forget the first time I saw people running a horse on an asphalt street, or someone use a metal currycomb on a horse or leave a horse to stand in mud to it's knees, or live in a pasture filled with junk. I could go on. To this day it amazes me that people will spend that much money on an animal and not bother to learn how to care for them properly.

My 4-H Horse Project were the first group to ever do a "Ride-a-Thon" to raise money for Cerebral Palsy back around 1975. I highly respect the people who helped me grow up to be who I am. They taught me that being responsible meant more than just "meaning to do right" you actually had to do right. They were seriously good people who gave me an example of living a middle-class life that I didn't get at home. These are the people I wanted to grow up to be like. It's 4-H that taught me how to keep proper records so that you know how much money you are spending . They taught me how to determine budgets. They taught me how to get up even when you don't feel like it. That your animal comes before YOU do. That if you are going to have an animal you have a responsibility to care for it properly and humanely. They are really into teaching children the precepts of leadership, and how to give public presentations. The "Demonstration Day" was an intense competition on giving presentations and one of my favorite events that I was horrible at.

There are some kids who do the sheep project and produce wool, and others who sell for slaughter. As a child in the rural suburbs of Sacramento, I didn't even know that other 4-H projects sold their animals until I went to county fair. I was shocked when I saw kids crying over their pigs and found out that they had to sell them at auction. It was something that my parents would never force me to do, thank goodness. No, I was forced to help butcher deer, rabbits, chickens, cows, and pigs.Once when I made fun of my mom and asked her how she could kill those chickens like that. My mom, with choked voice, said, "One day when your kids are crying because they are hungry you'll understand". I cried that day because of my heartless attitude towards my parents. I had judged them for something that I knew nothing of. They had grown up in a world totally foreign to me. As children of the depression they knew of starvation. My older brothers and sister often tell stories of being so hungry that on Christmas they went squirrel hunting and mom and dad didn't eat. My mom was damned if their kids were ever going to be that hungry again. My dad was disabled and couldn't work. It wasn't until they moved to California from Illinois that things changed and life wasn't as hard. (I have 7 brothers and sisters-yes this was before birth control)

I was pretty isolated in the horse project, and the dog obedience project which are very much geared towards teaching proper animal care and management. My dog obedience project was basically a year of teaching you how to care for a dog and giving kids hands on lessons on how to humanely train your dog. I got 4th in the beginner's obedience class at State Fair one year. The methods I was taught were from professionals who charged a LOT of money for what they did. I am very grateful for their efforts at volunteering in teaching children

4-H is also the the organization that cares for Guide Dogs for the Blind puppies. Kids from 4-H clubs take the pups and raise them until they have matured enough to begin their guide dog training. The kids do this as a service.

[CavySpirit]

Well, I also grew up in the country and joined 4H for a while and my Mom ran a sewing project. We made an apron! I also grew up very poor and on a farm.

It doesn't change the fact that from a cavy point of view, almost all of the 4H projects/clubs/whatever involve breeders and showing. The bad comes with the good. Many ARBA/ACBA members are very active in 4H. Also, take a read of their journals. You cannot separate them.

[kavykrazy]

Well, I've been trying to figure out a good response for this. I read all the links involved, many which I thought were very one-sided and biased. When I got back on this thread, slave to the wheek had written this lovely piece. 4-H isn't only about raising farm animals to be auctioned at the fair. There are many other project areas that don't even involve animals. There is a lot of community service projects, such as food drives and visiting elderly care centers. A lot depends on the leaders and how they teach the projects. There are good and bad leaders. By saying all 4-H is bad is a disservice to all the good clubs and leaders that spend many hours volunteering.

As a side comment, I was amused by the person complaining about the 4-H horse project in the link "4-H". That article made it seem that those practices only happen at a 4-H show. I used to show horses. At ANY horse show, there are people putting hoof black on the hooves, showsheen spray for a shiny coat, coat clipping and tail extensions for that nice long tail. None of these practices harm the horse, and horse shows are a type of beauty contest so to speak.There are good owners, and then there are the "I have to win at all costs" owner. I had a friend in the second category. He actually took his horse to a vet to have the tail injected with an alcohol solution to numb the tail (illegal to do to a show horse) because his horse would swish it in the showring. Back to the 4-H part, a good leader will hold the child accountable to proper care and will enforce it.

And one comment of the comparison of 4-H to FFA. FFA is not the same as 4-H in that it is geared toward agriculture as a future job, be it in the livestock industry or in growing produce. All of us depend on farming unless we have our own farm or area to produce our own food.

[Slave to the Wheek]

Yeah, I'm noticing. Since this is something close to my heart, I want to work on this. I'd put off the whole subject because I suspected as much at the back of my head.

It looks as this is a major problem that needs some attention. At first glance, it appears to me that the Cavy Project looks like a recruitment tool for breeders to sell guinea pigs to kids. I can't imagine what teaching kids to breed guinea pigs does for their future! I mean, it's all screwy. As a horse project member I cringe at the thought that breeding a horse would have part of the process! Ack! Almost none of what we were ever judged on was the horse itself. It was our "horsemanship" that mattered. Nothing else was as important. It didn't matter where are horse was from, or even what it's composition was. We were taught what was good and what was bad but none of my friends tried to buy fancier horses to win awards. It wasn't even in the vocabulary!

The national org appears to want to bend with society from what I can see. I do recall that there were all kinds of rivalries among 4-H clubs. Each having it's own philosophies and approaches to everything. When I moved across from the north to the south county my level of education on horses skyrocketed with my new 4-H club that's for sure.

I'm thinking maybe this might finally be my pet project....