Behavior: A question about housing pigs.

[genevieve]

Hello!

I have a question about guinea pigs. I have heard many conflicting views on the subject of housing them together and would like to hear some advice.

First of all I have owned Gpigs in the past and have always owned them as a solitary animal. Well, we made the decision to get a small pet for my
daughter this fall. And she chose a guinea pig. So off we went to the Petsmart to get one. I know Petsmart only sells animals of one sex at any location so that there arent any chances of an ooops happening. Well my daughter picked one out. He is male and unfortunately he has been named Princess. Well I like to look up as much info about my new pets as possible even though I have owned pigs in the past.

So in my website surfing I have come across the same statements over and over. "Guinea Pigs are happiest in pairs or groups" "Guinea Pigs are very social and need the relationships formed with other Cavy". Well I just kept coming across this over and over. Along with advice on introducing a new pig. So we made the decision to get another pig while Princess is still young. So off we went to Petsmart today to check out the local selection of male guinea pigs. The woman in the small animal section said I should not get another pig. That there would be bloodshed and vet bills. I asked if I had two females if that would have been better. She explained that no it wouldnt change the situation and that pigs are very territorial. She said the 20 sites I was on were wrong and that I should be prepared to have 2 pigs in 2 cages. Yet even on the info tags on the front of the cages it says that they do well in pairs.

Wondering what I should do? I love my pets and have always had a balanced home with a mixture of animals. I dont want Princess to be lonely and I want him to have the best life can offer and we have room for another pig in our hearts. I would even neuter if it was a safe option. But I also dont want an animal to be hurt because I have been misinformed by the internet. Princess is a very pushy pig and very outgoing for us only having him around for a month. I was hoping a more docile male would be a great match for him. And as I said earlier I would like to introduce a new pig while they are both young.

Thank you in advance

[Ly&Pigs]

Hi and Welcome.

I know Petsmart only sells animals of one sex at any location so that there arent any chances of an ooops happening.

Well, at least until a pig is mis-sexed then you end up being sold a male that is really female and pregnant. This is one of the reason we ask that people don't purchase pigs in petstores and adopt instead. That and the fact that many have parasties or are ill.

But anyways...

She said the 20 sites I was on were wrong

Unfortunately, she is the one that is wrong and the sites are correct. It's a myth that two males cannot live together (same applies with sows although sows generally get along a little better than many males). There are many, many members here with pairs, trios and herds of males that get along.

I would discard any information she gave you. You are now at a site where you can learn the basics of great guinea pig care.

He would benefit from a friend. If he's young, he'd be better paired with an older laid back pig if he's more dominant and vise versa. If he's older then a young pig is what would do well. The only thing that I would ask is to find Prince (sorry it's hard to call a guy princess) a friend through adoption and not buy anymore animals at the petstore.

[rabbitsncavyluv]

Petsmart claims to sell only one sex. There are often missexed pigs in the tank. And sick since they are from breeding mills.

Guinea pigs do best in pairs. Two young males may be iffy. You want the two boys to be of different ages. You don't have to neuter him if you want another boy. Find a rescue to help you match them up.

Read up here and www.guinealynx.info for care info. Petsmart is telling you a bunch of false things and sold you a bunch of bad products probably.

Never listen to a pet store employee esp. one that sells animals.

[genevieve]

Thank you both for the quick reply.

I used to work at a Petsmart up here in Canada as a dog groomer for a few years. I knew we always sold only females at my location. We were viewed as one of the better petstores because we did not sell mill animals and the cats and dogs were only ever from the SPCA. I knew they werent lying to me because I have friends that worked at the SPCA.

I am really having a hard time reading these attack type replys to be honest. I am new to this forum and feel like I have done the wrong thing by asking this question.

I certainley hope that my five years of working at a veterinary office has helped me to not be a dummy and get pressured into making rash decisions about the quality of products I have purchased. I was not told to buy anything for my pig. I picked all the toys and cage myself.

I have checked the local SPCA for pigs but at the moment there arent any available except for a few pairs which I do not want. I have already asked my local Rabbit and Cavy society and they have no leads.

I hope that I have not asked a "dumb" question and hope that I am not viewed on this board as a poor pig owner.

Thank you again.

[NicholsS10]

I also wanted to add that a large cage is vital for any pair of guinea pigs to get along. If you refer to the homepage of this website, Guinea Pig Cages, Your Cavy At Home you will see the actual size requirements for guinea pigs.

Also, please refer to this link: http://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/...heir-care.html for common misconceptions about guinea pigs and the care they require.

Please also keep in mind that almost all petstore employees know diddly squat about guinea pigs, and will push you to buy bad/harmful products for your pig.

Also please adopt your next pig, and don't forget to do a quarantine period of 3 weeks. There are over a thousand homeless guinea pigs listed on Pet adoption: Want a dog or cat? Adopt a pet on Petfinder alone.

Oh yeah, and welcome to the forum! You will learn more here than anywhere else for PROPER guinea pig care!

[Tessa Bea]

If you want to get Princess a friend, as you should, I would recommend adoption. There are plenty of pigs out there looking for forever homes.

But! First things first- how big of a cage do you have? The minimum for two is 2x4 C&C, or a preferred 10 and a half square feet. For boars, more is better.

[genevieve]

Originally Posted by Tessa Bea

If you want to get Princess a friend, as you should, I would recommend adoption. There are plenty of pigs out there looking for forever homes.

But! First things first- how big of a cage do you have? The minimum for two is 2x4 C&C, or a preferred 10 and a half square feet. For boars, more is better.

I have 2 cages right now. One is 14" by 24", the other 18" by 30". Once we have figured out what will happen and I find another pig Im hoping to link them together. There is also lotsa time for free outside of cage play because I am a stay at home mom and the pigs would be in my daughters room where I can close the door and has the least amout of wires for electronics. I also have a tall ferret cage that I was thinking of making into levels that a neighbour gave me. Lotsa room for tunnels and moving up. Im quite handy that way.

[Biscuit]

Originally Posted by genevieve

We were viewed as one of the better petstores because we did not sell mill animals and the cats and dogs were only ever from the SPCA. I knew they werent lying to me because I have friends that worked at the SPCA.

Petsmart really does adopt out cats and dogs, they do that here in the US as well. It was done to keep people shopping for their supplies there, since there was a lot of outrage over mill dogs and cats. Unfortunately, guinea pigs are not viewed the same way by many people, and the pigs in Petsmart are not rescues so it really doesn't apply here.

Originally Posted by genevieve

I am really having a hard time reading these attack type replys to be honest. I am new to this forum and feel like I have done the wrong thing by asking this question.

I'm confused as to how the replies could be taken as attacks, they only seem to be giving their opinions politely. Everyone takes things differently though, especially on the internet. It might help if you explain how people can best express differing opinions without you feeling attacked.

Originally Posted by genevieve

I certainley hope that my five years of working at a veterinary office has helped me to not be a dummy and get pressured into making rash decisions about the quality of products I have purchased. I was not told to buy anything for my pig. I picked all the toys and cage myself.

There is so much misinformation out there, no one will think you a "dummy" if you bought some less than ideal products. It's almost impossible not to, actually. Heck, my twin sister is a vet and would probably buy some less than ideal guinea pig products. Guinea pigs are just different, it's not you. =)

Personally speaking, I am the mostest smartestest person alive evers (not) and bought too small a cage initially. Everyone here did.

Originally Posted by genevieve

I have checked the local SPCA for pigs but at the moment there arent any available except for a few pairs which I do not want. I have already asked my local Rabbit and Cavy society and they have no leads.

You could try craigslist, local papers, etc. Especially with that guinea pig movie out, as long as pigs are being sold someone is dumping them somewhere. People simply don't value them. Don't take it as an attack, we are just very against buying animals as products. Most of us have bought a guinea pig from a store but since seen the suffering behind the scenes. It's a big dirty secret, no one will think you are dumb, they will simply politely disagree.

You seem pretty articulate and coherent to me, so I hope you stick around and remain open to our views no matter how many pet store employees think we are nutty! =)

[Hawise]

Hello Genevieve!

I personally always kept two male guinea pigs together and I never had a problem. If you go to a rescue, they can help you find the best companion for Princess.

And no, you are certainly not seen as dumb, or else, I am the biggest dumbest fool on the planet as I made many mistakes before discovering this website. I even bought books who were full of wrong information as my vet pointed out.

I have to admit I giggled when you told me he is called Princess It's cute.

Welcome to the forum.

[blackarrow]

I'd really recommend making a C&C instead of trying to attach the two cages together, for a number of reasons. Assuming you're measuring actual floor space and not measuring the exterior, by my calculations, if you attach these together, max you've got just a smidge over 6 sq. feet of floor space, which is simply too small for one pig, let alone two. It exacerbates the smallness of the space to have it broken up because he won't be able to run laps like he would if he had one uninterrupted floor space. (Edited to add that adding a multi-level ferret cage would not solve that problem either.) It's also MUCH easier to clean to have one larger, uninterrupted floor. Since you've got a boar (I do hope you've checked!) you're going to need even more room than you would if Princess were a sow. But I've got a pair of boars and can't even imagine having just a solo pig. They aren't cuddly with each other but they are beautifully bonded, and "talk" and share very well.

I'm curious why you said you wouldn't have wanted any of the pairs that were in rescue? Just don't want three pigs?

[Paula]

PetSmart and other pet stores of the same ilk often give out faulty information. Sometimes it's intentional, sometimes it's not - but I'd not trust much of anything you hear from a pet store employee without first verifying it on a website like this one, Guinea Lynx, Pigloo, etc. Unfortunately pet stores tend to be profit driven rather than in the business of helping animals (especially small animals) live long, healthy, happy lives and so the information you'll tend to get from them is not necessarily going to be trustworthy. What you were told at this pet store is, as has been stated, false.

Originally Posted by genevieve

I am really having a hard time reading these attack type replys to be honest. I am new to this forum and feel like I have done the wrong thing by asking this question.

I'm sorry, what? I don't see how answering your question(s) constitutes an "attack type reply."

Originally Posted by genevieve

I have 2 cages right now. One is 14" by 24", the other 18" by 30". Once we have figured out what will happen and I find another pig Im hoping to link them together.

Unfortunately this isn't going to be big enough for two pigs. And actually neither cage is sufficient for a single pig. Please read up on this site and get your pig(s) into an appropriately sized home.

[Buddy4]

I am fairly new as well, and we adopted our first from a pet store. Found this website, and decided on a companion for Buddy. We went to a local rescue, and they put Buddy into a neutral play area to see how they would get along. They watched them for about an hour or so and decided that they would be a good match. They now run around playing together and are so fun to watch. I do have quite a large cage for them, though, and they run laps a lot. It is impossible, buying from a pet store, to know if your GP's will get along or not. The rescue told us the story of Spike as we were leaving, that he was seen getting dumped into a dumpster. Children saw this happening and rescued him. He is now in a loving home with a great friend in his "Buddy." Welcome to the site, people aren't trying to be offensive, just very passionate about these little furry guys...

[genevieve]

Thank you all for the replies. I can tell all of you are devoted to your pigs. I am currently using the larger of the cages. Princess gets about 12 hours a day of run time in a safe closed room. This would also be the case when I get the second pig. We live in a small house and do not have the floor space to allow for a large cage to be permenant. We have 2 border collies and a cat. So I feel more comfortable having the pigs in a closed room. By having them in my daughters room I can store things away under her bed when not in use. And then in the evening when bedtime comes they would go into the cage. It was fine when I owned my rabbits because they always just ran around the whole house. But I have very large breed rabbits and my dogs were used to having them around. I just dont feel comfortable with the smaller pigs and the bigger animals.

Please let me address the "attack" message I posted earlier. I felt very put on the spot about my poor choice of getting a pig from a petstore. All my animals have always come from rescue societies (except my snake that I got from a breeder). As an example my last pig came to me when I worked at Petsmart and someone had left it in its cage outside the doors one morning. I took it home to find out that it had lice. That was fun!

I think we cant be too hard on the petstores. They sell products that are not healthy. But the grocery stores sell pop and Doritos and I cant boycott them.
It seems there are many people that feel strongly on here about cage sizes and nutrition. Has anyone ever tried to inforce legislation about the sale of cages that are too small? Im sure a large worrldwide group like this an push for things to be changed.

And as for me not wanting to adopt an older established pair? The reason is that we travel alot. And I was planning on Princess ( and now the new pig too) to come along for the trips with us. 3 Pigs I would never be able to set up comfortably at my inlaws or parents homes.

[blackarrow]

Cool about the BCs, I also have two. I don't have my pigs behind a closed door, I made a cage that could probably withstand an earthquake, LOL, and I always put the dogs in my car when it's "pigtime." (The dogs actually understand "pigtime" as a command now, and don't mind at all having a snooze in the van, which is one of their favorite places in the world.)

Seriously, though, while no one is enthused that you got Princess from a store, no one attacked you for it. People do want to make sure you don't do that again because living creatures should not be sold like a pair of shoes to anyone with a whim and the funds, but it sounds like that's in line with what you're thinking, too. We can certainly help you find a single pig somewhere to rescue if you would like.

As for being "too hard on pet stores" - it's partly, but isn't primarily, because the stores market products which are actually dangerous (such as guinea pig "exercise balls") and crap like yogurt treats to people for their lactose-intolerant pets that we're "hard on them" - it's because they sell living beings as merchandise. (I remember standing there in a pet shop once where a customer was being allowed to purchase a rabbit even though the woman openly discussed how she's going to have to sneak it into her apartment because it's against her lease to have pets - grrrr.) You might not have a choice of groceries, but you do have the option of purchasing pet supplies from places which do not sell animals, period. You may have to buy on-line to do that, but it is definitely possible.

We can't effectively campaign for enforcement of legislation about proper cage space for these animals, because such legislation doesn't exist - the mandated cage space for these creatures is smaller than even the inadequate cage space provided by many commercial cages.

[MissFormosa]

Originally Posted by rabbitsncavyluv

Petsmart claims to sell only one sex. There are often missexed pigs in the tank. And sick since they are from breeding mills.

That's the craziest thing I've heard about PetsMart selling only one sex! Ours sells both sexes in a small round cage, divided by a clear plastic wall.

I agree with rabbitsncavyluv, don't listen to any pet store employee, ever. They're only there to sell a product and nothing more. They do not have the animals, nor the consumers, best interest in mind...only dollars. They are like a bad car salesman that will tell you anything to get you to buy that old broke down lemon that's been sitting on the lot for a month.

[rabbitsncavyluv]

Huh? But the guinea pigs in Petsmart and other small animals there are from breeding/ pet mills. They are the equivalent to puppy mills.

You have a choice to not eat junk food. Most grocery stores sell produce and healthier foods. Petsmart only recently started carrying Oxbow feed. Their own line of nutriphase feed is junk.

A "large" pet store cage is still too small. Yours is just over 3 square feet.

The recommended size is 7.5 square feet. Petsmart doesn't care about carrying appropriate cages. The ones they sell are easier to fit on shelves and designed for that rather than the pet's comfort.

A ferret cage with levels isn't the same and it isn't going to be as safe.

[MissFormosa]

Originally Posted by genevieve

I think we cant be too hard on the petstores. They sell products that are not healthy. But the grocery stores sell pop and Doritos and I cant boycott them.

But do animals have a choice what they put in their mouths?

I have the conscious choice to go to the store and purchase and eat as much "junk food" as I want.

When you go to the pet store and purchase products that are not healthy for your pets, what choice does the animal have? Basically - eat what you are given or starve.

Do you think the businesses that make unhealthy pet or human food care what they are making? As long as their product passes the standards set in place by government agencies, it can be put on the shelf and used to make a profit. Think of this, if one consumer dies of a heartattack from eating nothing but soda and chips, another is ready to take their place - sucked in by clever advertising.

Originally Posted by genevieve

It seems there are many people that feel strongly on here about cage sizes and nutrition. Has anyone ever tried to inforce legislation about the sale of cages that are too small? Im sure a large worrldwide group like this an push for things to be changed.

No one person or group of people on a forum can enforce legislation. That is up to the government to do.

What people can do is get active in organizations whose mission statements match those of what they would like to see improved. Many of these organizations will help draft initiatives and submit petitions in order to pursue better animal wellfare laws. A lot of people on this forum do participate in some of these types of organizations and agenicies.

These organizations also help expose cases of animal neglect and cruelty in order to create public awareness of what they are trying to accomplish and why things need to be changed.

This in turn gives people the reason and motivation to write letters to goverment agencies and representatives asking for improved laws and legislation.

You would think with all this pressure, both from individuals and animal welfare agencies, legislation would be changed all the time. But it doesn't work that way. Legislation is often long and complicated and must go through several revisions before it can even be considered.

In my opinion, the worst thing anyone could do is sit back and do nothing or to ask what can be done and not take up action themselves.

[distancel]

I find it strange that a petstore worker actually advised you against getting another guinea pig...you'd think they would want to sell it. They probably really did believe what they were saying but perhaps had experienced this through not doing a proper introduction and having a far too small cage. Then of course the guinea pigs would fight!

Anyway welcome to the forum, I hope you find all the info you need here. C&c cages do take up a lot of room but I found having mine up on a table on a large slab of wood (because the table was far too short for the cage) was a very good way to free up space, as I can store things under the table. I have a very small studio apartment myself but it is just me and the pigs so they have enough room. Well this suggestion may not be relevant to you but it was how I dealt with space issues.

[akstrohm]

>>>I am currently using the larger of the cages. Princess gets about 12 hours a day of run time in a safe closed room.

Unfortunately, it is still far too small for even one pig. It's great that she gets daily floor time, but she needs to be able to exercise on her own schedule, not yours. Guinea pigs do not sleep at night like we do. They are active around the clock. If your cage is in your daughter's room, I encourage you to move it as it will increase the likelihood of her developing allergies. You are absolutely correct that the dogs should not be able to interact with the pigs. If you're not able to provide a good sized cage (and people here will be happy to help you figure out creative ways to do so), then you may want to consider rehoming Princess. A cage your size is simply not fair to him.

>>>Please let me address the "attack" message I posted earlier. I felt very put on the spot about my poor choice of getting a pig from a petstore.

You were not called names or yelled at. It was simply pointed out that a pet store is not a good place to get a guinea pig from. Many people have made this mistake. You now have a choice to not get your next pig from a pet store.

>>>I think we cant be too hard on the petstores. They sell products that are not healthy. But the grocery stores sell pop and Doritos and I cant boycott them.

Doritos don't feel pain. A guinea pig has a 20% chance of dying giving birth. Many of us here feel that this is an unacceptable risk, and pet stores promote breeding. There are so many pigs in shelters that need homes.

>>>And as for me not wanting to adopt an older established pair? The reason is that we travel alot.

Traveling is stressful for pigs. I encourage you to find someone who can watch your pigs while you are gone.


And to answer your original question, your pig absolutely needs a friend. But part of getting another pig is making sure you are willing and able to provide for both--this means a good sized cage, proper nutrition, and vet care. Guinea pigs take a lot of time, money, and energy. I hope you will not get easily offended and instead stick around to learn all you can and take proper care of your pigs, if you decide that they are indeed for you.

[crazywiggy]

Hi Genevieve, welcome to the forum!

Please don't ever feel like you are being attacked for genuine mistakes or misunderstandings on here - we are all human, and I believe almost every person on here has made at least some of these same mistakes themselves in the past. I certainly have - animals from breeders and pet shops, pigs not getting hay, etc. What matters is that we learn from ur mistakes and try to do the right thing from now on. I don't doubt you feel the same.

To address some of your other points:

Bad info is sadly commonplace - it is much easier to read or hear false info than it is to get the correct info, especially about guinea pigs. As you have probably realised the store employee was totally wrong about guinea pigs being solitary. I tend to trust nothing from these people.

I think we cant be too hard on the petstores. They sell products that are not healthy. But the grocery stores sell pop and Doritos and I cant boycott them.
It seems there are many people that feel strongly on here about cage sizes and nutrition. Has anyone ever tried to inforce legislation about the sale of cages that are too small? Im sure a large worrldwide group like this an push for things to be changed

I appreciate it would be impossible to boycott every single store and website that sells crap products, I have to find a single one that doesn't sell at least one item I object to. However, for me the biggest issue is the sale of live animals themselves - hence IU boycott the stores that sell them.

As for campigning - that is something I make an effort to do. I have contacted the pet stores here (mainly Pets at Home) stating that I will not be shopping there until they stop selling animals. I have written to many pet stores and online stores asking them to stop selling certain products (tiny cages, shock collars, guinea pig leashes etc) and to start selling good p[roducts (eg bigger cages, better food). I have also written to the government (in my case DEFRA and my local and EU MPs) asking them to bring in legislation protecting pet animals. Despite the new Animal Welfare Act here domestic pets actually seem to have the least legal protection. Both farm and lab animal laws include Codes of Practice which state minimum cage sizes for the animals. Don't get me wrong - these are tiny - but there are still many rabbit cages available for pets would not be legal to use in a laboratory!!

I just think that doing little things like sending an email or switching to a different store is the least we can do when animals are suffering and dying in their thousands.

Hope this makes sense.