Dominance: At what point will one give up?

[TheJiraks]

If you remember back to any of my past posts about fighting, I have two guinea pigs that are both right around 6 months old from best guess. Chuck we think is a little older by a month maybe. We got Chuck in December, and Shadow at the beginning of January. For a couple months they got along pretty well. Some rumblestrutting and mounting by Chuck, but nothing serious. Then as Shadow started getting a llittle bigger, he didn't want to be the low man on the totem pole anymore. They started fighting, blood was shed a couple of times, and now they are in seperate cages.
My question for any of you who have gone through this, at what point will one pig give up dominance? Will they ever? There are a lot of times when they act really interested in the other (they can see each other from their cages). So every couple weeks I will put them out on the floor together to see how they react. Fighting ensues....back to their seperate cages they go.
Am I being naive to think that they will ever get along? Am I just being impatient? It's just hard for me to see everyone on this website with multiple pigs all getting along for the most part. Why do I end up with the two stubborn ones? Any advice?

[Ly&Pigs]

It may be a while before the puberty settles down, meaning it could be another couple months or longer. Just try putting them together every 2-3 weeks and one of these days they may surprise you. Puberty doesn't start or stop at the same time in every pig so it's kind of a wait and see what happens type thing.

There are those few occurances where both want to be dominant and one won't submit so you may end up with two dominant boars who will need different partners to live with.

[TheJiraks]

Thanks Ly. So it sounds like besides being impatient, I am doing things right by trying to get them together every few weeks.

Did you see my post last week about possibly getting a spayed female from our neighbor? Yeah, my wife put the kabosh on that pretty quick. These two little guys are all we're getting, so hopefully they'll get along again soon.

[snistopher]

I'm in the same fix that you are, but the cage I've built for my two males (ages 7 months and 10 months) is fairly large, so they are able to keep some distance from one another. They do have some moments where they hang out together, but more often than not, there's the rumblestrutting/teeth chattering/occassional fiasco. I'm trying to be patient with this, but sometimes I dream of making a cage with a partition and calling it quits on possible cohabitation.

[Simonmaal]

I'd be interested in the outcome of this because I'm in the same position! By the way, there's a great guide on introductions here:

Guinea Pigs Social Life

[TheJiraks]

Originally Posted by snistopher

I'm in the same fix that you are, but the cage I've built for my two males (ages 7 months and 10 months) is fairly large, so they are able to keep some distance from one another. They do have some moments where they hang out together, but more often than not, there's the rumblestrutting/teeth chattering/occassional fiasco. I'm trying to be patient with this, but sometimes I dream of making a cage with a partition and calling it quits on possible cohabitation.

I started with a 2x4 C&C for the two boys and expanded to a 2x5 after they started fighting. I realize they can't fight 24/7, but we seperated them because the "occassional fiasco" ended up with a gash on Shadow's rump, and a small piece of Chuck's ear missing. Ugh! When we're at work all day I don't want to risk them being in the same cage anymore. At first I tried the partition in the middle, essentially giving them each a 2x2.5 cage, but I knew that couldn't last because it wasn't big enough for them. (We don't have room for anything bigger than a 2x5.) They would also bite incessantly at the partition. Now they each have a 2x4, one on top of the other in an L-shape so they can at least see each other. I'm dreaming of the day that they get along and can be back in the same cage again!

Originally Posted by Simonmaal

I'd be interested in the outcome of this because I'm in the same position! By the way, there's a great guide on introductions here:

Guinea Pigs Social Life

Thanks for the link. Believe me though, I've read through it multiple times and tried everything in there. It makes sense though that they're going through puberty and the hormones are flying. Each wants to be the big dog...or pig I suppose. Do you keep your pigs together still, or are they seperate for now?

[Simonmaal]

Originally Posted by TheJiraks

Do you keep your pigs together still, or are they seperate for now?

In total, I have four. Two of them live together peacefully and the other two live alone, in cages directly attached. You can see the arrangement here:

The Boys' cages - Guinea Pig Cage Photos

It's more like one large divided cage. It will be rebuilt as soon as I determine whether the 2 who live alone will get along. 3 of them are now a year old and are not so bratty, so it may work out.

[TheJiraks]

Originally Posted by Ly&Pigs

It may be a while before the puberty settles down, meaning it could be another couple months or longer. Just try putting them together every 2-3 weeks and one of these days they may surprise you. Puberty doesn't start or stop at the same time in every pig so it's kind of a wait and see what happens type thing.

I'm officially "surprised"! I tried something different tonight. I put them both out in the upstairs hallway where neither has ever been before. They've been out for almost an hour now without fighting. There has been a lot of the "let's see who can throw their head up higher", some raised hackles, a LOT of what I can only describe as a squeak that sounds like whining, and a little chattering teeth here and there.

The past 15 minutes they actually started to lay around like they were comfortable with each other. At the moment though, Chuck is trying to prove his dominance by mounting, but Shadow will have none of that. Still no fighting at all though.

Now to my question that I should have asked a long time ago. What do I do now that we've turned this corner? I'm not saying for sure they won't fight anymore, and it's taken a lot of nail biting not to jump in between them tonight, but is this a sign that they are ready to be in the same cage? I could always do this every few nights until we're absolutely sure one way or another, but I wonder how stressful that would be on them.

They're still on the floor so I can clean cages, so now would be a perfect time to make a bigger cage if I need to. They both have a 2x4, but I can make a 2x6 very easily. Please help with advice! Thanks in advance...and sorry about such a lengthy post!

Oh one more thing...(sorry!). While they are on the floor like this trying to get reaquainted, should there be toys or chew treats or anything like that? Right now it's just them cause I didn't want anything with a smell on it, and I wanted them to just concentrate on each other. Is this the right thing to do?

[TheJiraks]

Well the boys have been out and at the very least civil to each other for almost 4 and a half hours now. No fighting at all!

Since I haven't heard back from anyone yet (I realize it's late) I'm going to go ahead and keep them in seperate cages tonight. I hope that's the right thing to do. I'm really encouraged though that the boys have finally decided to play nice for at least tonight. This is a first for us since the "big showdown" a few months ago. Hopefully it continues. I realize it's hard to judge our situation over just my descriptions, but if you all think it's ok, I will rebuild a single cage for them tomorrow. Exciting! Let me know what you all think or if you have any questions.

Thanks!

[Rnd210]

Before building the nice big cage for them I would put them back together on the floor and make sure they still get along. After about 20 minutes of them getting along start building a cage but for to boys who previously did not get a long I would consider building something bigger that a 2x6 cage like maybe a 3x5 or even a 3x6 just to give them more space so that the chances of continueing to get along increases. 2 grid width can be a bit cramped for piggies that need a quick escape and from what I learned about boars and their cages is that the bigger the space the better they get along.

[Africa]

My boys had their first serious fight today (no blood shed but they raised up on their haunches and went for each other), it was terrifying! Ive done some research on the forum and think its probably due to puberty, because they are litter mates and have been getting on fine (for about 2 months) until now...

So sorry to TheJiraks, I have no advice but it seems I might be in the same situation that you were in. Perhaps my reply will help to get this thread to the top of the pile again so you will get some good advice soon.

I have a question for you (TheJiraks), how long did it take for them to get over the fighting? you mentioned months but was wondering specifically how many?

Also a question for everyone, my boys started fighting during floor time, its kind of a new area that I put them into and its a large space (about 20 square feet). From what I understand its not normal for them to fight if its a new space because then its neutral ground? Can anyone provide a reason as to why they started fighting at this time, is it because they are establishing who's territory this new space is going to be?

Thank you!

[Simonmaal]

Originally Posted by Africa

Ive done some research on the forum and think its probably due to puberty, because they are litter mates and have been getting on fine (for about 2 months) until now...

Yes, puberty is when my boys started being unpleasant to each other. All those hormones, just like teenagers!

Originally Posted by Africa

I have a question for you (TheJiraks), how long did it take for them to get over the fighting? you mentioned months but was wondering specifically how many?

I know the question was to someone else but if I can answer from my experience of the same thing: Billy and Bluey once lived together with Bobby and Benny (thus a group of 4 boars) and Bluey and Billy had a really unpleasant fight, leading to Bluey getting injured. So I separated Bluey from the other three for his own protection (Benny started also starting butt jousting Bluey around the cage, which is in my experience the first sign of resentment building).

Eventually Benny and Billy (2 littermates) went at each other and Benny took a severe pasting, so he too was separated. I finally introduced Benny to Bluey, with disastrous results and poor Bluey took another beating.

So I was left in a situation where Benny lived alone, Bluey lived alone and Billy and Bobby lived together. Billy and Bluey would snort and stamp at each other when one of them was near the other's cage; they tried to get to each other and bit the bars in fury. They had their fight in November 2008, so that's about about eight months ago. Then I introduced Fudge, our latest arrival, to Bluey and the two of them get along really well. Well, during the settling in period, I kept a cardboard divider between the cages so the 2 pairs of boars couldn't see each other. After a week I took it down and now Billy and Bluey do not act in a hostile way to each other; whether this would continue if I let them have actual contact, I do not know. But I do know the lack of constant visual contact appears to have helped them get along.

But, Benny and Bluey live at opposite ends of the room and yet they still hold their grudge: during floortime when one of them goes to the others' cage, they behave like raging bulls! Bluey still absolutely detests Benny and this is probably about 3 or 4 months after their fight. Billy also still detests Benny and tries to eat his way through the coroplast whenever he goes near Billy's cage.

So the conclusion I draw is that guinea pigs can hold a grudge for many months but there is no set time; it depends on the individuals.

[TheJiraks]

Well the boys are back on the floor this morning, but there is a LOT of teeth chattering this time. Still no fights though, and Shadow continues to back down when things get tense. I'll take that as a good sign that Chuck is reestablishing his dominance. Also I've noticed that when they go face to face, Chuck has his teeth bared, while Shadow just seems to be sniffing away, not hostile at all. Chuck is also making the majority of the noise.

Originally Posted by Africa

I have a question for you (TheJiraks), how long did it take for them to get over the fighting? you mentioned months but was wondering specifically how many?

If you head over to here (http://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/...ll-sudden.html) you can see where this all started back in March, so it's been a good four months.

Originally Posted by Africa

From what I understand its not normal for them to fight if its a new space because then its neutral ground?

This is my understanding, too. That's the reason I put them in the hallway last night. Neither had ever been out there so it was nuetral ground.

Originally Posted by Africa

Can anyone provide a reason as to why they started fighting at this time, is it because they are establishing who's territory this new space is going to be?

But see this makes sense to me too. My guess (and it's only a guess based on my personal experiences) is that your pigs just aren't mature enough right now to establish who is top dog...err...pig. So when they get into a new place, they would have some problems because they're both going to want to mark their pig smell everywhere to say "this is my turf", and the other isn't going to like that at all. You should have smelled our hallway last night. Let's just say I'm glad my wife was at work, or you wouldn't be hearing from me anymore. Time to get out the carpet shampooer!

Originally Posted by Simonmaal

But I do know the lack of constant visual contact appears to have helped them get along.

This is where our pigs are different I think. My pigs are in seperate cages, but they butt right up to each other so there is really only a grid divider between the two. I've caught them so many times laying down next to each other at that divider. It's like they enjoy each other's company, but not the physical contact.

Originally Posted by Simonmaal

So the conclusion I draw is that guinea pigs can hold a grudge for many months but there is no set time; it depends on the individuals.

I'm not sure that the pigs will hold a grudge, but I could be wrong. I think it has more to do with the maturity of the pigs (teenagers after all), and whether one is willing to give up dominance to the other. If neither is willing to back down, they will always go at it.

Originally Posted by Simonmaal

(Benny started also starting butt jousting Bluey around the cage, which is in my experience the first sign of resentment building).

Butt jousting. That is hilarious! Never heard it called that before. What that is though is actually a defense. They figure, "Hey if I'm gonna get bit by this wise guy, I wanna get bit where it's not going to do major damage." This way they protect their head and they have a lot of meat down there to protect vital organs.

Well in the 30 minutes or so it took me to write this Chuck and Shadow have settled down quite a bit. There was one instance where Shadow jumped onto Chuck, but then they seperated themselves. Now they're just kind of lounging around the room.

If you all think it wise, I might just leave them in seperate cages for awhile, but just give them shared floor time for awhile to see how they continue to deal with this. I don't want to stress them out any, but I really would like for them to live together again if that's what would ultimately make them happiest.

[Rnd210]

It would stress them out more to keep seperating them in the cages and putting them together during floor time can you remove atleast one grid to make their devided cage into one and clean all of thier stuff except maybe on thing that belongs to each.

[Africa]

Thanks Simonmaal and TheJiraks! My 'thank you' button has disappeared (seriously) so havnt been able to thank anyone lately! ;-)
So it seems like I have at least a couple months before they hopefully work things out... till then Im going to have to build an even bigger cage and put in a partition. Right now I have them separated with the one boy in the kitchen and the other in the play area (but the kitchen is too small for the one boy to be in.

I will let them see each other through the grids but if they start nawing at the grids in frustration wanting to kill each other, then wil put up something so they cant see each other

My word, Im not looking forward to this! just want them to be friends!

Thanks for everyone's advice!

[Africa]

YAY!!!!!!!!! My thank you button is back!!!!!!!

[TheJiraks]

Originally Posted by Africa

I will let them see each other through the grids but if they start nawing at the grids in frustration wanting to kill each other, then wil put up something so they cant see each other

Mine would knaw on the cages too. I tried a little vinegar at someone's suggestion, but that didn't do much. Someone else mentioned Bitter Apple Spray but I never could find it locally, and by that time they had pretty much given up trying to eat their way through the grids. I would recommend letting them see each other still, meaning you might have to put up with some annoyances for awhile. They will get over it soon. I think it's important that they remember there is another pig nearby. I think this will help get them to eventually accept each other again.

I'd still like to hear what a few more of you think about my pigs' cage situation. They've been out on the floor together again tonight for about the last two hours without much more than some nervouse whining between the two of them. I plan to put them back into their seperate cages at bed time though. I guess I'm just worried that if I put them back together that there will be a fight when we're asleep or not at home. How do I know it's safe to keep them together again?

[Rnd210]

Originally Posted by TheJiraks

Mine would knaw on the cages too. I tried a little vinegar at someone's suggestion, but that didn't do much. Someone else mentioned Bitter Apple Spray but I never could find it locally, and by that time they had pretty much given up trying to eat their way through the grids. I would recommend letting them see each other still, meaning you might have to put up with some annoyances for awhile. They will get over it soon. I think it's important that they remember there is another pig nearby. I think this will help get them to eventually accept each other again.

I'd still like to hear what a few more of you think about my pigs' cage situation. They've been out on the floor together again tonight for about the last two hours without much more than some nervouse whining between the two of them. I plan to put them back into their seperate cages at bed time though. I guess I'm just worried that if I put them back together that there will be a fight when we're asleep or not at home. How do I know it's safe to keep them together again?

It can be really stressful on the guinea pigs to be put together and then seperated agian, so you should try to remove atleast one grid from their curent cages to allow to have full access to each other. Since they are getting along right now with floor time they should in the cage to providing it is big enough and if things go well after removing one grid then build something to allow them more space if you want.

[Rnd210]

Also it is safe to put them back together again when they are no longer fighting. And you already said that they are getting along and they need to be able to establish their dominence order of which they can not do if you keep putting them together and then seperating them again. You are teasing them, heres a buddy for you to play with and then haha now your buddy is got.

Lets put it this way, You give a 2 a sucker and a few minutes later you take it away and say you can't have it haha, now you have a very upset 2 year old and the only best solution would be give the 2 year the sucker and not take it away. It is just cruel to put 2 guinea pigs together and they are getting along and then seperating them again, I mean seriously how would like it?

I bet you really wouldn't like so if they are getting along leave them together!

[TheJiraks]

Sorry Rnd210, I didn't mean to ignore you earlier. I meant to reply then completley spaced it off when I was doing another search of threads. Sorry!

Take a look at the photo below to see what you think of the configuration right now. I was thinking just take off the 2x2 on the left, and remove the divider completley to make a 2x6. If I just took out the divider then it would leave that 2x2 on the side and I wonder about one of the pigs feeling cornered there.

They really have gotten along well last night and most of today. No fighting at all, just a lot of noise more than anything. Stressing them out more is what I'd like to avoid. You think there time together the last two days shows they are ready to live together again?