Um...help the noob?

[crazywiggy]

Within all the debate in this thread I hope you have realised why buying anmials from pet stores is a problem. If we have convinced you not to buy pets in future then really that is all that matters. What's done is done, no one is going to suggest you return your piggie or anything else. It's what you do from now on that matters.

About pet store puppies though....

I am not so completely 100% against breeding as most members here (although I do agree it is always irresponsible to breed any species that has a problem with overpopulation).
I have no problem with truly caring, responsible breeders.

But good breeders do not sell through pet stores. Like a rescue, good breeders vet the homes of their animals. A good breeder will have put a lot of time, money, effor and expertise into breeding the best pups they can and will want to ensure they go to loving, permanent homes with people who want a dog for the right reasons, have the ability to care for it properly, and understand the breed. They therefore only ever sell direct to new owners - who usually have to meet the breeder and be grilled about their lifestyle, home, experience etc.

Any breeder who sells pups through a third party does NOT care where their pups go, or what happens to them, so long as they get paid. This is not a caring responsible attitude.

It is also irresponsible for potential owners to purchase a puppy through a third party - as they have no way of knowing where the puppy comes from, if it is healthy or well socialised etc.

On that note - socialisation... The early weeks of a puppies life are the most important for socialisation. This does not just mean being with other dogs but getting used to normal life experiences. Being taken from its mother and home, and put in a cage in a store to be gawped at then left alone during the long hours a shop is closed is not good socialisation.

Puppies being registered does not mean they are good quality or from decent breeders. While I would say that registered is probably better than unregistered, it is still fairly meaningless. A breeder can churn out huge numbers of badly bred pups in appaling conditions, without doing any health testing etc and still register the pups.

I am also concerned at the idea that the shop doesn't buy from mass breeders, ie anyone with more than 50 dogs. 50??? That figure is well into puppy mill status already! Personally I would regard any breeder with more than 4 breeding bitches to be a "mass" breeder! Part of being a good breeder is being a good owner. There is no way a breeder with so many dogs has enough time to give them all proper care and attention. Do these dogs get exercised daily? Trained? Groomed? Played with? No. And with so many dogs they are still producing a lot of pups - which means less time per litter, so less socialisation and care for the pups. A good breeder never has more than one litter at a time.

Then there is still the issue of impulse buying. Pet stores actively encourage it... they want people to come in for something mundane, coo over the cute puppies and walk out a few hundred dollars worse off. Of all the animals that should never be bought on impulse dogs have to take the top spot. Adoption is always the best option, especially with so many thousands of dogs being killed simply for want of a home. For those few people who adamantly refuse to adopt, there are a few good, caring, responsible breeders out there. There is just no excuse for every buying a pet store puppy... and no excuse for a pet store selling them!

Anyway, please realise that whole puppy rant is not a personal insult to you. I just wanted to explain why the practice can never be justified.

And some of us, if not all, do see the good in people. I see someone who has rescued a number of animals. I see someone big enough to admit their mistakes. I see someone who has come here to research their new pet so they can provide the best care - which is more than many people do. I see a lot of good in you.... but like everyone else I have the same desire to show you why we are so against pet stores and convince you to help us make a difference.

[fourboys4now]

What a cute baby piggy, with the cutest little piggy pink lips. I have bought online the KM hay and Oxbow pellets and the prices were not that bad since I bought in bulk. I froze what pellets I could not use in the next few months, it will last a year in the freezer. Hope the baby is feeling better soon.

[Cherish]

Okay, firstly I'm not going to hop on the bandwagon and join the petshop/rescue debate.
It's been done to death in this thread already, and nobody likes re-runs.

A lot of people have given you some really good advice already, and the only thing I would add that has not already been covered (and if someone already has brought this up and I've missed it hidden amongst the text walls and drama llamas, I do apologise) is that you double-check the sex of your guinea pig.
Baby guinea pigs can be very difficult to sex, and pet shops are notorious for mis-sexing piggers.
Especially as you plan on providing Ginger with a companion, the last thing you want is a pregnant pig if Ginger turns out to be a boy!

There are plenty of good sexing guides available on the web, and it's always better to be safe than sorry!

[Almi_]

I am still wondering:

Originally Posted by Almi_

I also picked up a small kitchen scale and weighed Ginger. Turns out that she only weighs about 8.4 ounces (235-240 grams), so she's too small to treat with Ivermectin. What else is safe to use? What if she never gets big enough? She doesn't seem to be growing at all, even from the time I saw her several weeks ago at the pet store.

If anyone can help me out I would be forever grateful.

[Almi_]

Originally Posted by crazywiggy

Within all the debate in this thread I hope you have realised why buying anmials from pet stores is a problem. If we have convinced you not to buy pets in future then really that is all that matters. What's done is done, no one is going to suggest you return your piggie or anything else. It's what you do from now on that matters.

About pet store puppies though....

I am not so completely 100% against breeding as most members here (although I do agree it is always irresponsible to breed any species that has a problem with overpopulation).
I have no problem with truly caring, responsible breeders.

But good breeders do not sell through pet stores. Like a rescue, good breeders vet the homes of their animals. A good breeder will have put a lot of time, money, effor and expertise into breeding the best pups they can and will want to ensure they go to loving, permanent homes with people who want a dog for the right reasons, have the ability to care for it properly, and understand the breed. They therefore only ever sell direct to new owners - who usually have to meet the breeder and be grilled about their lifestyle, home, experience etc.

Any breeder who sells pups through a third party does NOT care where their pups go, or what happens to them, so long as they get paid. This is not a caring responsible attitude.

It is also irresponsible for potential owners to purchase a puppy through a third party - as they have no way of knowing where the puppy comes from, if it is healthy or well socialised etc.

On that note - socialisation... The early weeks of a puppies life are the most important for socialisation. This does not just mean being with other dogs but getting used to normal life experiences. Being taken from its mother and home, and put in a cage in a store to be gawped at then left alone during the long hours a shop is closed is not good socialisation.

Puppies being registered does not mean they are good quality or from decent breeders. While I would say that registered is probably better than unregistered, it is still fairly meaningless. A breeder can churn out huge numbers of badly bred pups in appaling conditions, without doing any health testing etc and still register the pups.

I am also concerned at the idea that the shop doesn't buy from mass breeders, ie anyone with more than 50 dogs. 50??? That figure is well into puppy mill status already! Personally I would regard any breeder with more than 4 breeding bitches to be a "mass" breeder! Part of being a good breeder is being a good owner. There is no way a breeder with so many dogs has enough time to give them all proper care and attention. Do these dogs get exercised daily? Trained? Groomed? Played with? No. And with so many dogs they are still producing a lot of pups - which means less time per litter, so less socialisation and care for the pups. A good breeder never has more than one litter at a time.

Then there is still the issue of impulse buying. Pet stores actively encourage it... they want people to come in for something mundane, coo over the cute puppies and walk out a few hundred dollars worse off. Of all the animals that should never be bought on impulse dogs have to take the top spot. Adoption is always the best option, especially with so many thousands of dogs being killed simply for want of a home. For those few people who adamantly refuse to adopt, there are a few good, caring, responsible breeders out there. There is just no excuse for every buying a pet store puppy... and no excuse for a pet store selling them!

Anyway, please realise that whole puppy rant is not a personal insult to you. I just wanted to explain why the practice can never be justified.

And some of us, if not all, do see the good in people. I see someone who has rescued a number of animals. I see someone big enough to admit their mistakes. I see someone who has come here to research their new pet so they can provide the best care - which is more than many people do. I see a lot of good in you.... but like everyone else I have the same desire to show you why we are so against pet stores and convince you to help us make a difference.

I have already said that buying pets from pet stores is not a normal thing for me and this was a "special circumstance," so to speak. Though I will admit that I have adopted (for free) pets that had problems and such from pet stores, that doesn't mean I think it's okay to support the sale of them (by buying them and otherwise).

In either case I plan to ADOPT UNWANTED PIGS. It really feels like everyone is ignoring me in my attempt to tell them that I HEAR them.

Thus, your post has been refreshing. Thank you very much.

You're right, a moral breeder shouldn't sell through pet stores. You can be a "good" breeder in the sense that you know your animal's background and breed for quality, but sell your animals through a pet store.

This is where the pet store needs to be good. I give a lot of credit to my boss. She's a great woman and "dogs are her life," as she puts it. She makes sure any breeder she gets from has quality dogs and isn't a miller. She does truly care, and will ask potential owners tons of questions before she sells them a dog.

If you ask me she should really have some sort of application for the dogs. I do believe she has a contract, but really I think she makes it too easy for the dogs to get sold. This is where I agree with you.

I will say though, that we do have records of every puppy we get, and the owners are sent home with these records. They include the parents' registration, shots received, etc. If the buyers want to know where the puppies come from, we tell them.

There is one thing I like about this pet store also, they encourage adoption before buying. They have flyers with pictures of dogs posted up right by the puppies for sale. I do believe on their site they also encourage adoption and going to Petfinder. Yeah, this is the puppy page: Fargo Store

So it's not like we don't tell people and advertise to them that there ARE homeless animals. They make the choice to buy from us instead of adopting.

On all else that I basically didn't reply to, I have no choice but to agree with you. You have some very good points.

Originally Posted by Cherish

Okay, firstly I'm not going to hop on the bandwagon and join the petshop/rescue debate.
It's been done to death in this thread already, and nobody likes re-runs.

A lot of people have given you some really good advice already, and the only thing I would add that has not already been covered (and if someone already has brought this up and I've missed it hidden amongst the text walls and drama llamas, I do apologise) is that you double-check the sex of your guinea pig.
Baby guinea pigs can be very difficult to sex, and pet shops are notorious for mis-sexing piggers.
Especially as you plan on providing Ginger with a companion, the last thing you want is a pregnant pig if Ginger turns out to be a boy!

There are plenty of good sexing guides available on the web, and it's always better to be safe than sorry!

Thank you. I have pretty much taught myself how to sex pigs (it's similar to sexing rabbits, I've found) since I sexed a male the other day. Didn't take very much of looking at bits and poking and prodding to figure it out. X3

In any case, Ginger pees backwards. =P

[pigsforlife]

You need to wait until she is 340 grams/12 ounces until you can Ivomec her. She doesnt appear to show many signs (from the photos) of mites yet, so I think she should be fine until she weighs 340 grams. She should gain weight quickly, especially with lots of pellets, hay, and veggies.She will be able to get through the grids, heck - I have to watch my little girl Lily who although is now 1 year old still weighs a tiddly 860 grams. Cardboard can be used, or the overlap the grids as others have suggested.

[tpals]

Originally Posted by pigsforlife

No rabbit pellets.

KMs timothy based pellets or oxbow cavy cuisine/performance (cuisine is alfalfa based, perfomance timothy based) is the way to go. Unlimited timothy hay supplemented with alfalfa hay until she is 6 months old. Again Oxbow and KMs are the best brands out there.

Check out the stickies located at the top of each forum. In the Diet and Nutrition forum there is one particularly sticky that holds a chart posted by Ly. Look at this.

Pigs need a varied diet of vegetables, yes, but you need to watch how often particular veggies are fed and in what quantities. Therefore you may find it easier to set up a menu that you can follow.

Please consider getting her a friend, cavies are social creatures and do well in groups of 2 or more. http://www.cavyspirit.com/sociallife.htm

2 sows can live happily in a 2x3 C&C cage which is 7.5sq ft.

She could grow up to be a rex/teddy (fuzzy hair like my Toffee - http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...hegirls006.jpg - she is the cream and white pig in the background) or a texel, which has long curly/wavy hair. Crazy haired pigs are abbys which is what my Rosie is - http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...hegirls015.jpg

Just a correction that cavy cuisine is the timothy based pellet.

[Almi_]

Okay, so now I've got her on just the right diet and in just the right type of cage....


We still have the problem of mites. I'm pretty sure she DOES have mites, the reason you can't visually see the problem in the pictures is because I didn't show you pics of her behind:



And they are getting worse and she is losing more fur every day. The good news is that I got her to eat veggies last night! I think the problem was that I gave her a bigger dish (about 2 inches tall), so she wasn't bothering to stick her nose in it. I got her a nice shallow ceramic dish (it's kind of like a deep plate) and gave her a 7-lettuce mix, baby carrot, cherry tomato (cut in chunks), cucumber slice, alfalfa sprouts, and green pepper. All she ate was all the lettuce and carrot, but it's a start! At least I can just give whatever she doesn't eat that's been sitting out a while to my millipede - he won't mind if it's not fresh. Do you think I'll have a better chance of getting her to eat it if it's in tiny bits? I could put my food processor to use...in fact, I think that would be easier if I could make her a little veggie mix (without lettuce, I think she would like that to be in whole leaves) every couple of days and keep it in the fridge. What do you think?

Also, on the subject of veggies. I was asking about veggie-feeding regimens on other forums, and the people on one of them says that veggies can just be fed as more of a snack and that they're not as important as the hay and pellets. They told me that as long as you had quality pellets with added vitamin C, it would be fine. When I questioned them saying that I was told on other forums (mainly this one, as it's the most active) that veggies are a MUST and a very important part of their diet, they told me that that was probably so because it's a very good way of providing vitamin C. So I gathered this:

If you feed a somewhat crappy mix, feed lots of veggies. If you feed a very good, quality mix, you don't need to be as strict with veggies, because their food provides most of it (Vit-C). Of course, either way I think a GP should get veggies. Even with a quality mix, supplementing the diet with veggies will ensure they get their daily dose of C. But I'm wondering if maybe the feeding a cup a day thing came from people not being able to find good guinea pig pellets? And so everyone just does it that way even if they have good pellets? Just curious.

Oh, and I weighed her yesterday again, and I must've been pressing down on the scale slightly in an effort to get her to sit still (she sits still now that she's not afraid of the scale...haha) before, because then it said she weighed about 210-215 grams. When I weighed her today, she weighed 225 grams (8 ounces)!! =D

So she is gaining weight. I'm still afraid, though, that it will be too late by the time she gains half her weight to treat her, since when I first got her, she didn't have any bald patches and just looked sort of dandruff-y. And at this rate, it will take her maybe 10-14 days to even get to 12 ounces. So I have questions about Ivermectin.

First, I found this treatment. Guinea Lynx.

Then I found this one. XXXXXXX

The thing I noticed about these was that they were different forms of Ivermectin. The topical stuff you have to dose very carfully, and it's called Ivomec. The oral stuff you can overdose up to 40 times the amount and it still has little chance of adversely affecting your pig. These are called Equimec, Zimecterin, and Ivercare.

Then there's this. XXXXXXX

Now I realize that this is a treatment for mice and not guinea pigs. But the thing is, this is apparently a different form of topical Ivermectin than GL says to use. This is also the exact stuff I have, and I have successfully treated my mice with it. I have drenched mice in this stuff (of course making sure it was about the reccommended dosage; it's hard to with a spray bottle) and had to rub it directly on the affected area to get rid of their lice. The first time I used it, it didn't work; I think I either wasn't getting enough or it wasn't able to penetrate to their skin before they cleaned it off of themselves.

Anyway, since this treatment can be used for such a tiny animal as a mouse (again, I know, different species), what do you think of it being used for a small cavy? Do you think a vet would know much about it? Or do you think I should just wait it out and let her suffer? D:

[Susan9608]

It's time to take your pig to the vet. There's only so much diagnosis that can be given over the internet, and as your pig is too small for our typical, recommended treatment for mites, there's not much else we can offer you.

Using a treatment designed for any other species of animal is not a good idea. A better idea would be to consult a good, exotics vet. If you need help locating a competent cavy vet in your area, we can assist you with that.

Also, pellets are generally considered the least important part of a cavy's diet. Some people utilize the HAFF (hay and fresh foods) diet and eliminate pellets all together, but that's not recommended for someone new to guinea pigs. Fresh foods provide more than simply vitamin C. They provide other nutrients as well as variety to your guinea pig.

[CavySpirit]

I already said this earlier which was ignored. Now that I see a photo, I'm almost positive that hairloss is NOT due to mange mites. Hair loss due to mites is more from scratching the hell out of themselves due to pain from inflammation of the mite bites. It doesn't just fall out. I don't see a single scratch there. That IS however, a very typical looking fungal infection--which again, is a VERY TYPICAL problem with teddies.

I would treat for both fungus AND mites. I've treated plenty of babies with ivermectin. IF they have mites it's not worth waiting. Others will say differently, but this is the voice of experience, so take it for what it's worth. You should start applying an anti-fungal creme right away. Personally, I would also try VCO coconut oil.

And treating for both fungus and mites will not hurt your pig on the outside chance that it's something else causing the problem.

But, as has been said, you should have already taken the pig to a good cavy vet. Hopefully there is one near you.

[rabbitsncavyluv]

Those other breeder websites were wrong. They don't usually feed veggies since it is cheaper not to. Your pig should be eating primarily hay and veggies and then limited high quality pellets. They shouldn't be fed cheap poor quality pellets at all.

Treat your pig for both mites and fungus. She may well have both. Take her to a vet as suggested.

[Almi_]

Okay, I'm pretty sure I've said that I DO have a small animal vet that I bring my animals to. I can't imagine running a rescue without one.

Someone suggested to me on another forum to take Ginger to a vet after seeing the picture. Thank you, I will make an appointment for this week.

Originally Posted by rabbitsncavyluv

Those other breeder websites were wrong. They don't usually feed veggies since it is cheaper not to. Your pig should be eating primarily hay and veggies and then limited high quality pellets. They shouldn't be fed cheap poor quality pellets at all.

No one said they should be fed poor quality pellets. I've been told by everyone I've asked that Oxbow and KM's are the ones to feed. So I'm talking about having to supplement quality pellets.

What is the point of pellets if they're not even healthy? I would think that they contain all of the nutrients that vegetables have, and by feeding veggies you are supplementing what is already in the pellets as well as providing nutrients that can only be found in fresh veggies.

I'm sorry, but I don't really know what to believe until I have proof as to why veggies are more important than pellets. It really is sounding like a matter of opinion to me at this point. Tell me WHY, specifically ("because they need the nutrients" does not cut it for me) they need a cup of 20 different kinds of vegetables every single day.

Forgive me if I'm just being a jerk here and someone has told me and I have missed it. This thread has gone on for so long and there was so much to read through (not even pertaining to diet) that I may have missed or forgotten it. I tend to believe people when they make a valid argument.

"Breeder" websites? I posted Guinea Lynx, which didn't get deleted when the others did (what?), Cavies Galore (I think) and a MOUSE site so I could show that there are DIFFERENT ways to treat them, and so people could give me thoughts on the mouse treatment. But no.

What is the deal? I don't know what you mean by "breeder" websites. You mean ones that aren't biased? Are you against animal breeders (not backyard breeders) then? What, it's okay to breed dogs, but not cavies? Even though there are far more unwanted dogs and cats than rodents? What if people stopped breeding cavies altogether and they became endangered? Would that make you happy? Would you be okay with the fact that they would become extinct if no one bred them? I don't have a problem with people responsibly breeding animals. It's people that just breed them for the heck of it or for "pretty colors" that I don't like.

It might be in your best interest to learn to differenciate between things like this. Realize there is more gray matter than black and white in a lot of things. You either have people breed them (responsibly and otherwise) and have rescues, or you don't have the little critters at all. It's a lose-lose situation. Sucks, but that's the way it is. You're never going to get an entire country like the U.S. where everyone is pretty much free to do whatever they please to comply with your "standards." In which I mean, there are always going to be idiots out there that don't care and will breed and dump cavies irresponsibly.

You know, I don't really see why I had to be pushed around on here and criticized for what I've done in the past, and HOW I do things. I run a RESCUE. I've admitted my mistakes. I realize that I could have done things differently in the past. I am trying my hardest to learn as much as I can about cavies and providing mine with the best care possible. Is that not good enough? It seems like all this forum is is a bunch of harpies that jump on people and then a bunch of people that jump on the bandwagon with them. It's sad, really, that people aren't even allowed their own opinon. It's not my fault that most people here have a biased point of view. Not everyone thinks like you do, and you can't make people think like you do. It's life, deal with it.


To those of you who were extremely helpful and noncondescending - I apologize for the random rant. I just don't believe a good pet forum should be like this. I'm not an idiot that's easily scared off, so I've stayed. But not everyone will. By being a jerk to someone who clearly should be doing something differently, you are not going to get through to them by telling them they suck at pet care or by asking things like, "Oh, why are you doing THAT?" You're going to scare them away, and there goes your chance to make a difference in an animal's life.

I'm going to venture to guess that there are many members on this site that are adults - and it's sad, because adults should be more mature than that and realize these things.

I respect knowledgable, intelligent people. I respect them MORE if they are kind, mature, open-minded, and respectful towards other people.

[PiggieMamaKelly]

ONE of the reasons pigs need fresh vegetables is for the vitamin C. Most other mammals have the enzymes to manufacture vitamin C within their bodies but guinea pigs lack that ability. Although pellets contain vitamin C, it is only active for 90 days and who knows how long the bag has been sitting on the shelf at the store/warehouse. Vitamin drops added to water bottles become inactive within hours.