Advice

[C&K]

Well then, that really is a shame, that you are not coming back, for your pigs sakes.

It is now going to cost the owner of this site, who runs a rescue, and sees pigs die everyday homeless, thousands of dollars a year to keep this forum alive, for people like us, and people like you! Why should the site condone breeding?

So you don't have a car, why not rent one? Why not see if a friend or family member can drive you? These are pets you will have for the next 5-7 years or more, they will require extensive care and cost a lot of $$ throughout the year. Obviously though, you don't value the lives of guinea pigs, because you would rather see 3 DEAD PIGS then be slightly inconvenienced! So don't turn this on us, I think it is a shame that you are leaving and not willing to listen to the great advice on this board, but if that is the way it is going to be, then so be it.

I am not going to spend possibly hours of my time over the next few months giving you endless advice and tracking down info you need, just to watch you turn around and support the breeding of more pigs, or turn around and breed your own, because "you want more" or "a friend wants one". I give so much advice because I want to help people become responsible pet owners and see happy piggies, not to condone and support back yard breeding operations!

So, get defensive, make it "our fault", really, it does not matter. Or, calm down, think about what was said, LOOK at all those rescues in the UK that use their own hard earned money to save pig lives, and come back with a change of heart.

But then again, maybe they are "only guinea pigs". I wonder if your sister? Sister in law? Would be so nonchalant if she lost a mother dog and two pups afterwards. Probably not, but then again, maybe, you just never know with the breeding type.

[WEAVER]

I feel bad for the pigs, not for you. You mentioned they were currently a week old. Someone else mentioned to you that they need to be seperated at three weeks old so they do not impregnate one another---you than came back and said your eight year old neice already seperated them herself. So let me get this straight----you purposely breed them, the mom died along with a baby during brith, another baby died the other day, and all the babies are sexed and seperated from one another--so now they do not have their mom or the comfort of one another---not a good start on their life . I also would love to know how a eight year old child can sex one week old guinea pigs when people who are very knowledgable about guinea pigs have a difficult time telling when they are that young.

Even if you are upset with what we have had to say (I know the truth is sometimes hurts and it is easier to make excuses), I encourage you to do some research and learn about the care of guinea pigs. You can get some great information on this site http://www.guinealynx.info/.

[paulus]

Originally Posted by Cavies-and-Kids

So, get defensive, make it "our fault", really, it does not matter. Or, calm down, think about what was said, LOOK at all those rescues in the UK that use their own hard earned money to save pig lives, and come back with a change of heart.

But then again, maybe they are "only guinea pigs". I wonder if your sister? Sister in law? Would be so nonchalant if she lost a mother dog and two pups afterwards. Probably not, but then again, maybe, you just never know with the breeding type.

I think you last statement "you never know with the breeding type" is nothing but inflammatory, all I did was ask for advice, why critisise people who have no knowledge it is surely better to educate than force your opinion onto somebody.

[WEAVER]

Paulus I do not think that C and K was talking about you when she made that statement (unless you consider yourself to be a breeder). She was just stating a fact that many breeders do not care about "their stock", they only have the animals for profit.

I can see you are still here, so I am hoping you really do want to learn about the best care for guinea pigs. I hope you really can turn their lives around and give them the home that they really deserve. They have not had a good start on life and I strongly urge you to do reasearch on the site I gave to you previously. There is also lots of good information on the opening page of Cavy Cages about the care they require. I hope in your heart you can see the mistakes made and make a difference beginning today.

[PiggieMom]

Paulus, if you do every check this thread again, I beg you to listen to us. I know you think that we're attacking you, but we're not. We are jut very passionate about the care of guinea pigs.

It sounds like you come from a family of breeders. So you probably have lived around a breeding mentality for a very long time. Try to read this post with an open mind.

I grew up purchasing dogs from breeders. I went to their homes, saw how happy the puppies and parent dogs were. I saw how much the breeders I bought from cared for those dogs. How could anything done in an environment of such love be wrong? I heard stories about evil breeders who treated their pets horribly, just like everyone else. I knew what THOSE people were doing was wrong. But I didn't buy from THOSE breeders. I always did background checks on the breeders I bought from. I visited their homes several times before I bought from them to make sure it was a safe environment.

But then in April I found this forum. It got me thinking about all the homeless animals that are out there. I didn't want to hear about how I was wrong to buy from all those breeders that I had bought from. I stayed silent as I read the forums without registering for a month. Then one day I decided to do a search on petfidner.com. I didn't think there were that many homeless animals in my area. I mean I live in rural Michigan. In big cities in Detroit, sure there were a lot. But out in the country?

Boy was I wrong! Hundreds. Hundreds of dogs, cats, ferrets, guinea pigs, mice, rats, chinchillas.. the list continues. I didn't even know you could adopt guinea pigs from the Humane Society. I then did a search in my local classifieds. Even more homeless animals within an hours drive from my home were in foster homes because there wasn't enough room in the shelters.

I couldn't believe it. How did this happen? Then I started to do research on what causes this overpopulation. It was the breeding. I didn't know. I had been helping perpetuate this state of homelessness. This age of easy access pets. This era of misinformation.

I cried. Then I came to the decision that nothing could be done about past mistakes. But I could try to prevent future ones. I made my first visit to the Humane Society in my area. It's a bit of a drive, since I am in the country. And I don't have a car. So I paid my friend ten bucks to drive me. On the way I informed him of all the homeless animals in Michigan. He was just as surprised as I was. He had also always bought pets from breeders or pet stores (who buy their "stock" from breeders). He hadn't known the truth. But I spread it to him.

This is when I finally registered to this site. I knew that I had been wrong. There are homeless animals everywhere. They might take a little bit more work to get, but it is so rewarding to adopt.

Please. I know your angry. I was angry once. The truth is bitter. But once it is swallowed, you will feel so much better about yourself.

Breeding is dangerous. 1 in 5 mothers die. These are not odds that an eight year old child should be playing with. Not to mention problems with inbreeding, sexing, and lethals.

But what is done is done. We can't change that. But you can stop her from breeding again. You can take those pigs, give them good homes and happy lives. Please do not walk away from this chance to make a difference.

If you need to talk or have any question please feel free to send me a PM, e-mail or instant message. All my information is listed.

Praying that you come to understand the truth,
Christine

[twinkies]

I hope you will continue to stay here. As you can see, we love our piggies and just want the best for them. There are so many piggies in shelters just waiting for a new home.
But anyway, please stay and send us some pigtures of the new addition to your family.

~Rhonda~

[C&K]

I think you last statement "you never know with the breeding type" is nothing but inflammatory, all I did was ask for advice, why criticize people who have no knowledge it is surely better to educate than force your opinion onto somebody.

Really? All you wanted was advice? Well, then I am terribly sorry! I thought I saw you get a ton of good advice, and then when people saw that you and your niece where "breeding pigs" so that you could have a baby pig or two of your own, and rather nicely explained that this was an anti breeding site and why, you said :"Came on looking for advice, left with a lecture. Don't think I'll bother using this site again, I stated why I didn't go to a pet shop and didn't realise that there were any shelters although I don't live anywhere near port talbot (which is the nearest to me) and don't have a car."

Well, sorry, I did not realize you did not have a car, now I understand why it was necessary to kill a mama pig and bring two babies into this world just to face death. Really though, there is always a way if you truly care to find it. As I suggested, you could rent a car, you could get a friend or family member to drive. You could wait for a local rescue to get some in, you could check your local paper and message boards frequently, you could call vet offices and let them know you want a pig. You could call pet shops that don't sell animals and see if they know of any. You could go online and post that you want a couple pigs in Wales, and well, someone would probably respond and actually hand deliver an absolutely perfect pair! If you did not know about these, or think about these options, well, that happens. That is forgivable, but don't go getting all indignant about it, just say "sorry, I was not thinking, or I did not know".

Perhaps that line you quoted me saying was Inflammatory, emotions run very high on this forum, as many of us are involved in the sheltering of guinea pigs, we can't save them all, it takes a lot of money out of pocket for most rescuers, and a very high emotional toll for those we can't help.

However, the plain cruel and heartless truth is, many breeders do not care about their animals. Animal mills of all types abound, with these people running them calling themselves "breeders". Others with smaller opperations will think nothing of shipping off an adult should if fail to produce a nice litter of show quality pups. In the guinea pig world, it even gets much much worse, it is routine for guinea pig breeders to actually kill off babies that don't make the criteria, or are sick or injured. If you spend a day reading into what goes on, it is enough to make any person cry.

Still though, you will not find this a very supportive site for any type of animal breeding, as cats, rabbits, dogs, cats, and tons of other animals die by the thousands paying the price for too much breeding. We like our mutts! Perhaps working dogs fall into a grey area, but really any other type of purebred breeding, does nothing but cause more animals to die in shelters.

Anyway, if you want to stay (and I think it is in the best interests of your pigs,) this is all water under the bridge to me, just please, try to understand, there really are very few places in this world sadly enough, where pigs are not in need of homes because of over breeding. The owner of this site is going to spend 1000's of dollars a year to run this site because it is so busy and helpful, the least we can do for her is not talk about making more pigs homeless, as she rescues them in California, and gets notices about pigs that are going to die unless she takes them in all the time! We need not be talking about or supporting the increase in this burden! (And this is not just an "american thing or a Canadian thing, there is at least one person on this message board that rescues in the UK, and many UK users whos hearts have been broken by not being able to take in anymore then they already have).
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]

[Mazzy1893]

[FONT=Verdana]Now, please don't bite my head off, but I just wanted to mention something that I read on another thread, a reminder perhaps. It has been suggested before that we come on too strongly sometimes, and I truly feel that we do but we do it with the best of intentions and the interest of the piggies at hand. I am sure that Paulus was unaware of the breeding problem and I am saddened to think that he left the board for the piggies’ sake.

I am happy that I rescued my pig, unknowingly actually, as I did not find out about this site for quite some time. But, I would also like to say that before I joined I was actually surprised at the reactions of people when it seemed as though people responded very strongly, however, I understood the reasons why as I work in a veterinary clinic and see every day the damage that can be done by breeders.

I would also like to say that I am not a pro breeder of pets; however, I do have working dogs so I feel that it is okay to breed these dogs because they are for specific jobs. I also care for many customs dogs many of whom are specifically bred for the job and I must say that this is a necessary evil, an evil because the dogs who do not "make the cut" are forced to be re-homed, however, the process has changed a lot and many of these dogs are now going into great homes. My father has always bought bred dogs; this was of course before I was born and when I was five years old.

I am proud to say that I am now a rescuer myself after having lost my beloved working dog of 11 years. I currently have a Labrador retriever-great dane-rotweiller mix and I have first hand seen the cruelty that can come from actual families. This is getting so off topic and I'm sorry but I feel it is pertinent to this thread.

So, the dog that I have in my custody right now, Tucker, was "rescued" by a family and I took him in as they were moving and "no longer had space for him" When I met him he was such a great dog, then I brought him home, he was so terrified of my father, one of the most kind-hearted men around, that he growled at my dad and dropped to the ground. I have been working with him for nine months and he actually loves my dad now, but the family who supposedly "rescued" Tucker actually beat the **** out of him and made him, a 108.8 lb dog cower at the sight of a man. This experience with Tucker has made me realize the importance of rescuing.

Now, you are probably all asking how this relates to this thread. I'm not sure if it does but in my mind it made sense. My family has always bought bred dogs because we use them as workers, and maybe Paulus will be able to learn from his experiences with is niece, maybe once he realizes what pigs are like (as I don't know if he has had them before) he will realize the harm that they have been put through. Maybe this will help him to teach his niece to stop breeding.

Hopefully he will read up on the care and keeping of pigs and all of the health risks that they are put through as a result of inappropriate care. Also, he may even be able to teach his niece how to appropriately care for her pigs. Hopefully he can show her the sites and she can learn for herself the importance of not breeding and rescuing instead.

I really hope that Paulus comes back and reads this thread. I know that emotions can get extremely heated on this site although I have not experienced this myself. Everyone on this thread has so much to offer, maybe we could try to be more understanding of other's...lack of knowledge and try to present it to them in a better manner instead of just letting our emotions take a hold of us.

I know that what I am saying may make some of you angry, and please understand that this is not my intent at all, I just wanted to present to you all a different angle from which to look. Please forgive me if I have offended you and please do not hate me as I really like it here on this forum and plan on sticking around. I really appreciate all that you guys have done for me with regards to my pig and I know that Paulus could probably use the knowledge. He seems to have the best intentions but does not like being told what to do. I can understand this. I truly feel bad for his piggies if he decides to leave the form. But guys, lets try to give him and everyone else a little break as it seems that people generally come here because they want to learn. Please don't hate me! [/FONT]

[C&K]

I think your post made total sense, and just goes to show how much from the heart we all speak.

I don't think that many people did jump all over the breeding at first, it was more like a "alert" and ready to educate thing, this person instead said that they did not need anymore lectures, well, you know my opinion on that, I don't wish to revisit it.

I do believe that dog breeding can fall into a grey area, as I mentioned before because of working dogs. Now, some mutts can be turned into service dogs, but it is usually much more predictable with certain breed dogs. I don't think many here would want to see seeing eyed dogs or police dogs or customs dogs not around any time soon. Unfortunately not all the puppies are cut out for service, but, at least they usually do find great homes.

The other side of it though is with the backyard breeding. It is always really sad to see a poor dog suffering from hip dysphasia due to poor breeding, or other genetic abnormalities. Dalmatians in particular where nearly ruined by the backyard breeders after all the movies came out. They are a strange breed of dog that can suffer from urate crystals more then most any other breed of dog. When I got my dal 17 years ago, the problem was just about unheard of, very low incidence. After the movies came out, that number climbed to like 25 or 30% of Dalmatians in the 90's suffered from this condition. My Dalmatian was "bred" pre these problems, and never did suffer a urate crystal or stone in her life, all 14 years. Another problem is as a breed they became mean! They used to be just hyper and crazy, but never mean. My local SPCA sites a Dalmatian as the typical "mean" dog that should be put down rather then rehomed.

I remember hearing the same thing nearly happened to Collies after the Lassie show decades ago, it nearly destroyed the breed. I suppose there is such a thing as being to popular for their own good.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that I agree on the working dog breeding, to a point, but not the Pet trade breeding. I don't think it is good for the overpopulation problems, nor for the dogs themselves. Just too many people putting two dogs together when they don't have a clue what they are doing, and the puppies are the ones that have to live with the consequences, either in being homeless down the road, or suffering from poor genetics.

With Cavies though, could anyone say that a certain breed of Cavy has a "Purpose" that cannot be fulfilled by any other type of guinea pig? Of course not. That is why breeding on any level is just wrong.

And for Paulus, if you are still reading, this is a very interesting read on why the two babies probably died, at least if they where born all white. You never did answer if they where or not... if they where not pure white, it could not have been this, just that sometimes baby pigs don't make it:
http://cavycages.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4190

[Mazzy1893]

I totally and completely agree. I have always had labradors, well actually my parents had a beagle who died when I was two. I do not condone the breeding of pigs, they are not working animals. I hate it when people come in to the clinic I work at and think oh it is great for the kids to see the "miracle of birth" and back yard breed. It actually makes my blood boil. I am working quite closely with a lab rescue right now and I cannot believe the number of labs who are given up because they are"too hyper" however, if you did your research and even looked at the breed before buying you would know that labs do not settle down early in life, some never do! It absolutely disgusts me when people bring animals in and want them to be "humanely euthanized" because they are too hyper. Is there even such a thing! I mean, come on, look into a breed before you buy. We have had some people bring in pigs who "scream too much" and they want them put down. It disgusts me, then they also have them in the tiniest of cages and think that they are doing such a great job, but the pig gets no veggies, barely any hay, and just gets pellets and water and is kept in an aquarium. Ignorance is disgusting. How can you not thorougly research a pet before getting one?! Oh well, I digress, sorry for ranting everyone.

[C&K]

Just a heads up, this site is also PETA friendly Mazzy, and probably a lot of members do not agree with the "whole hunting dog working dog thing " Indeed, I believe that PETA would like to see that no dogs are bred to be working dogs, but that is an entirely different argument that I think we perhaps need to leave alone!

I cannot believe that people want to Euthanasia an animal for being Hyper, basically happy and healthy! That is just terrible! Does your vet do this? I have known vets that don't even want to Euthanise really old arthritic animals that are in a great deal of pain! (Can't say i agree with that either).
But common, a Lab is a RETRIEVER! They are not wired to sit on a couch all day and watch the kids go out to play. (who usually cannot be bothered walking the poor things after the 3rd day they come home). I know with my dog, if she does not get her morning walk, she is a lot more hyper and destructive!