Need some advice on male-male introductions

[philosopig]

Hi everyone,

First, I want to introduce myself. I've been lurking here for a few months, and have found these discussions and the site in general immensely helpful. I adopted my first pig ever in June, and decided he needed a buddy (I realize I should have considered adopting two from the beginning, but I just wasn't sure that I could handle taking care of two..).

I have started introductions with the new buddy. Wallie is my first pig and is about 1. The new pig, Nosophorus, is about 2.5. I know there are a large number of posts on introductions, and I think I've read all of them, but I was hoping to get some specific advice on my situation.

Wallie and Nos. have met 4 times now, the last two times for 4-5 hours each. I try to keep them in a 2x4 cage split down the middle between introductions. I don't feel comfortable leaving them alone w/o a divider yet. Sometimes Wallie chews on the metal of the divider and tries to escape to the other side, but I don't think he's figured out he can push the pigloo near the divider and jump over. (he seems to be chewing on the metal less, although i do worry he will flake off some of the paint and swallow it!)

When they meet, there is rumblestrutting (I think!), some small fights, a lot of nipping, but I don't think any contact has ever been made with the nips. There are no tufts of fur. I think Nos. is winning the Nose-offs, but doesn't exhibit any of the dominant behaviors. He wants to be left alone. Wallie tries to mount him, rumblestruts, etc., and has little jumping tantrums when Nos. nips at him.

My question is: how should I proceed? I will try to keep introducing them every evening (although sometimes I won't be able to do this, since I may not always have the time every night to monitor them), and letting them be in the same cage with the divider at other times. When do I resort to the buddy bath? Should I try other stress bonding like running the vacuum or driving them around in a carrier? Do you think there is hope they will work it out? I'm hopeful in that they haven't had a big fight, but I don't see an end to the tiffs anywhere near. Is there anything else I should do?

Sorry this is such a long post! Any advice would be most appreciated. I've read the www.cavyspirit.com/sociallife several times, but if there is anything else, I would love to hear it.

[DocDolittle]

Actually, introducing them in such short spurts is worse, because every time they're forced to redo the dominance thing. So, your best bet would be to set aside one day( a weekend day?) and start by setting the boys in an unfamiliar area together. Watch them closely for the first half hour or so, and then, while keeping an eye on them, start to scrub their cage down with a water and vinegar mixture. Make sure everything has been washed so that there's no scent of each other. Then keep the boys out until you relly can't watch them or need to sleep. They should have, by then, sorted out their dominance for the most part, but in the cage it might start again. However, it sounds like your boys are doing great. Just don't continue to separate them after they meet.

[philosopig]

Thanks! I definitely got the impression from some other posts that it might be bad to keep separating them. But I've also heard it was fine, and it was better to keep "reminding them" of each other. Also, I have been warned by several people to never leave them alone together unless I was 100% sure they were getting along. So what happens at the end of, say, 12 hours on Saturday if they still are having tiffs? I can't imagine leaving them alone, but maybe I should risk it?

Also, I'm hoping that having them in the same cage with a divider is better than having them in separate cages across the room. The advantage of the latter is that they could each get more room (one 2x4 cage and one 2x3 cage), but I assume that the one who gets to stay in the permanent cage will become territorial. I also assume that having them close is maybe helpful--maybe they can "process" each others' pheromones??

When I do the introductions, I definitely do what you described (put them on neutral territory and scrub the cage), but nothing has worked itself out in the 4 or 5 hour meetings.

[DocDolittle]

Technically, my boys and Dagwell's(another very experienced member on this board, she keeps 5 boars together) have never stopped getting into 'tiffs'. They still like each other, but they probably will never stop rumblestrutting at each other. They're pretty much just putting one another in place, most animals do this. If you've gone an entire day without any bloodshed or major injuries, chances are they'll be fine.

[cavy-cool-crazy]

Welcome, philosopig! I have to say I love your pigs names - very original!

Nipping, chasing, mounting, butt sniffing, mild teeth chattering and nose-offs (high nose contests) are normal dominance behaviours, and as long as your pigs haven't got into ball-of-fur fighting in that 12 hours then they will be fine to leave in the same cage. It is a bit of a risk but if they are getting on OK while they were supervised then there shouldn't be any differences when they are unsupervised.
Staying with them for the first hour while they are in the cage gives you a good idea of whether it is worth leaving them alone, as if anything was going to happen it would have happened sooner rather than later.

Same cage with a divider is better than having completely separate cages as they get to know each other over time and so will have more of a chance of getting on if they have 'met' each other through the grids.

[philosopig]

Thanks DocDolittle and cavy-cool-crazy! That all makes sense.

The current plan is: I will keep them in the 2x4 divided down the middle until Saturday (it's so little space for them! But I guess they can deal for a few days). Here are a few more specific questions:

1. how likely is it that they will get along for the 12 hours, get along in the cage (with a few tiffs every now and then--DocDolittle's definition of "getting along"), and then one day, weeks or months down the road, all of a sudden get into a full-fledged fight (like Ball-lightning has just posted)? Is this only a danger if they are not past puberty?

2. What if they do get into a big fight during those 12 hours on Saturday (cross my fingers they won't)?

3. Assuming there is no big fight, why not give them a buddy bath at the end of the 12 hour period on Saturday (just to bond them further)? I have heard (on this forum) that buddy baths should only be used as a "last resort," but isn't this only because it dries their skin to give them TOO many baths? Frankly, I think they could both use one bath because all of this dominance business is making them really STINK!!!

p.s. Thanks for the compliment about the names! "Nosophorus" is a vampire name (where "Nosferatu" comes from), and since Nosy is absolutely jet black (and with long "cape-like" hair), it seemed appropriate

[cavy-cool-crazy]

1. It is always possible that something will upset the pigs in some way, and the domiance behaviours may escalate on some days, but they rarely result in major fights. It is much less of a risk once the pigs are past puberty as their hormones settle down and the pigs aren't so manic in their actions.

2. If they do get into a fight, wedge a dustpan between them and pick one of the piggies up. Check both pigs over for injures, and if there are wounds then use a drop of diluted Listerine mouthwash to prevent infection. If it was just a small bite which caused a tiny amount of blood to be drawn then simply move the introductions pen and try again with some lovely fresh veggies and lots of ha as distractions. If they really don't get on and keep getting into fights then try a buddy bath. There are 2 ways you can do this:

a) Bathe the pigs separately taking extra care to shampoo around their butt areas in particular and introduce on neutral territory again, or
b) Bathe both pigs together in the same bath. This is actually the proper way to perform a buddy bath, but many struggle with one pig in the bath let alone 2 or more!

If this doesn't work then put a divider in the cage and just let them see each other that way.

3. Buddy baths should only be done as a last resort because it stresses most pigs out to be bathed as well as the drying out of the skin. If the pigs are getting on OK then there is no reason to put further stress on them by bathing them unnecessarily. Don't worry about the smell - it's what results of all the territory marking they do!

[philosopig]

thanks again!!!

I thought of ANOTHER question (and I'm sure this won't be the last!): "The Pigloo Issue":

the first 3 times I introduced them, I added a hidey house or two identical pigloos into the floor area after at least an hour or more without any shelter. After this, they would fall into a "rut" of Nosophorus hiding in the pigloo/house and Wallie trying to enter (even when he had his own perfectly acceptable pigloo right there). Whenever Wallie tried to enter, Nosy would stick his head out and snap at Wallie (a pretty viscious nip in the air--again, not contacting Wallie but pretty scary). A few times Wallie succeeded in running very quickly into the pigloo with Nosy, and then eventually getting kicked out. The question is: during the planned 12 hour introductions on Saturday, at what point (if ever) should I introduce the pigloo? Or, should I introduce a pigloo-sized box with a back hole (although when I used this before it didn't seem to change anything)?

[cavy-cool-crazy]

That's a tough one to call. Try tunnels instead of pigloos to start off with so that there is more than one exit hole. If you can't do tunnels, try cardboard boxes with 2 or 3 holes cut into them as doors. Put 3 or 4 of these in with them so that there is more choice, but it may not make too much of a difference.

If they still refuse to leave each other alone in the hidey holes, take them away and give them a huge pile of hay instead. That should distract them from each other a bit as well as giving them a different type of hidey. Once they are getting along then add pigloos and see how it goes.

[Ly&Pigs]

I agree, leave the pigloos out and give them a maze to explore with boxes and things. Every time you introduce them and take them apart it's stressful for them and they can't sort anything out. Until Saturday I would not even put them together again.

[DocDolittle]

About the pigloo deal, my boys always fight over one pigloo during floortime and all I see is Pippin following Cocoa in, the pigloo shaking around a bit, and Pippin running into the other. I know longer include pigloos because of this, I simply bunch up some towels for them to cuddle in and give them their cuddley cup. However, they've never truly gotten injured.

Also, about the breking up a fight thing, I'd break them up, separate them so they can't get to each other( without touching them), wait five minutes for them to chill, and then pick them up, because two weeks ago the pigloo incedent happened and I went to grab Pippin and he gave me a pretty nasty bite on my thumb( because he was frightened, of course). However, somehow they boys still got along quite well and now they're good friends again. Silly piggies.

[philosopig]

Regarding the pigloos, I agree it makes sense to not have them as part of floor time. Tunnels and perhaps paper bags with 2 or 3 holes might be the way to go.
But.. they should have pigloos in their cage, right? But even in their cage (during one of the previous introductions), they had the "pigloo problem" (Wallie chasing Nosophorus in, the pigloo shaking, and Wallie getting kicked out, or the scary Nosophorous nipping to guard his place). Should I not put the pigloos in the cage? If not, what should I use for shelter?

Also, is it a bad sign that they've previously been together for as long as five hours at a time without reaching a state with little or no tiffs? DocDolittle, I know you said that your boys never stop getting into tiffs, but how many tiffs is too many (or too frequent)? Wallie and Nosophorus, at the end of 5 hours or 4 hours, still seemed pretty riled up. I'm worried that a more serious fight is impending. Maybe this is worrying too soon, but I'm a bit of a worry-wart! I'm also interested to hear about others' experiences.

[DocDolittle]

My boys probably rumble-strut at each other at least every twenty minutes or so. I think they're just communicating. I highly doubt that your boys would wait five hours until you're gone just to get into a big fight. I don't think piggles work that way!

[cavy-cool-crazy]

Once they have bonded without pigloos during floor time they should leave each other alone once in the cage. Other options for hideys in the cage are towel tents, big piles of hay, cardboard boxes and tunnels.

It took nearly 2 weeks to get my pigs to get along when I added the third pig. I introduced them during floor time and Tuppence lunged at the new pig, Lottie. She kept doing it and cornering Lottie so I separated them - which, in hindsight, I shouldn't have done as there was no blood drawn. They lived in cages near to each other and had separate floor times, but they could see and touch each other through the bars, but not get at each oher properly.
After 2 weeks they showed no interest through the bars so I put them together in an empty bathtub lined with blankets after performing my version of a buddy bath (individual baths). There was a bit of lunging but then it settled down to just chasing and mounting and a few nips. I had them separate for the night (couldn't convince my mom) and in the morning I gave them all floor time together with no problems and they just followed one another into the cage and all the pigs sat together happily, and it has been like that ever since.

[philosopig]

That's really interesting--perhaps they'll work some stuff out across the divider before I introduce them again.

Does anyone have any similar experiences? Or other advice? I want to do whatever I can to increase the chances of them getting along.