[steve_and_pigs]

Originally Posted by Stephanae

This presupposes that causing death is causing harm. And that's the thing that I've tried repeatedly to state that I do not believe. I do not believe that causing death is causing harm. I believe that death is good.

Stephanie, if this forum doesn't allow you to explain yourself to a degree that others can understand, then perhaps you should have this conversation somewhere else. Simple statements like "death is good" don't tell us anything. That could mean that you think randomly killing things is good. Of course, you have explained that you support "death to support life". I can appreciate that, but some are going to find that to be a self-serving statement if you can't give further detail, especially those that come to their conclusions by reasoning through them. I'm guessing your feelings are related to the way the natural world works, but I have to guess.
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[quote=Stephanae;347885]
So instead, I'm going to turn the tables, and I'm sorry if you feel attacked because I really do appreciate what you said very, very much and don't want to attack you, but what are your reasons for eating meat? Are you a vegan in incubation? Do you recognize the moral superiority of their position
[quote=Stephanae;347885]
I said the argument that they have is valid (from a logical perspective). Is that moral superiority? I don't think morals and ethics are that simple. If I harm no animals, but do other questionable things, am I morally superior to a a meat eater? Perhaps not. I did not say morally superior. You said that.

Originally Posted by Stephanae

but you have "many values to consider, some of which . . . conflict, and [you] need to reconcile them by making compromises?" Or do you actually value your own moral position on eating meat?

I don't have a moral position on my eating of meat. I eat meat because that is how I know how to eat. I was raised eating meat, so my eating habits resolve around meat. I obviously accept that the slaughter of animals does not bother me enough to go through the very difficult process of changing my eating habits. If I had to go through the difficult process of killing the animals, I might change or I might not. It is certainly obvious that humans that slaughter animals can become used to doing it. I am motivated by the senseless abuse of animals, so I buy better products, or raise my own.

I don't think all human behavior is backed by moral reasons. Do smokers have moral reasons for their smoking? Do we go to the movies for moral reasons? A meat eater does not necessarily have any specific moral reason for it. We also do things because we find them enjoyable, or because they are a behavioral habit.

Originally Posted by Stephanae

I'm the only person here who's bothered to try and explain that I have reasons for eating meat that make some kind of moral sense to me, at least. What about the rest of you? Is silence the easier route because it lets you keep the respect of the vegans here? Do you all believe that vegans are right, and some day you'll be a vegan, when only you have the strength? Do any of you have reasons for your positions that don't involve being too weak to be a vegan? Does the forum consist only of vegans and vegan wannabes or are there non-vegans out there who actually believe in what they eat?

This is probably not a moral reason, but I'm just plain in love with the whole farm thing. I love farm animals. I find using their poop for my vegetable garden very rewarding. I love growing my own food when I can, instead of having it shipped 1000's of miles, and packaged up in all sorts of crap. Those reasons are "moral". I hate the waste of fuel and other "temporary" materials. This is connected to the fact that consumption of various goods is bad for the planet. I don't eat my chickens, but I do eat their eggs. I'd love to have my own dairy animal. Raise my own milk, make butter, cheese. I'm into the whole cycle of life thing. I'd like to do one of those alge/fish/vegetable things (aquaponics?). I'm a bit at odds with that because they are usually very energy intensive (pumps). I could feed some of the fish to my chickens. They would love that!

I don't like buying fertilizer(which is in bags, has been shipped) when I can raise animals that produce it right next to my garden. I know there are non-animal fertilizer options, but I'd have to buy most of those. I do grow a "green manure". It is hard to say how it all adds up. I do have to buy feed for my chickens, but not too much, as I've grown some forage for them, and they prefer to look for bugs. If you have enough pasture land (which I don't), you don't have to buy chicken feed at all. They also eat a lot of table scraps. Of course, plant table scraps could be composted instead, but my chickens turn it into fertalizer a lot quicker I don't feed them chicken or eggs. That would make me sick.

I see the value of the traditional local farm, which includes both plants and animals. I also wonder if attempting to do non-animal farming is sustainable, but I have not studied that in much detail. I recently visited a farming village in vietnam. Those goats had it made! They had a whole mountain to graze on. The villages occasionally slaughtered their goats. The pigs and chickens were more often eaten, but still at a minimum when compared to plant eating. The natural balance does produce "way" more plants than animals.

Originally Posted by Stephanae

If you do believe in what you eat, my sense is that there are even some vegans on this forum who will respect what you believe, even if it's not what they believe, just as you respect what they believe even though you feel differently. I still have to believe that mutual respect is a possibility.

I think personalities tend to conflict more than folks acceptance of what their neighbors eat. We should try to respect each other on many levels, not just food.